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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#72626: Mar 26th 2022 at 7:20:28 PM

[up]Go for it.

Edited by Melinda on Mar 26th 2022 at 7:20:40 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#72627: Mar 26th 2022 at 7:22:59 PM

@Scraggle Same goes for your dad as well.

TBNY (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#72628: Mar 26th 2022 at 7:31:04 PM

@Scraggle, please do get better. COVID is not fun and my friends and family have suffered through it.

@jjjj2, IIRC The Lady blowing up the buildings and Herod's home, it's something that was hinted at since the establishment around the town was built for Herod. His places of business. With Dred and Dog Kelly, basically with one, she had to kill someone (like Cort with Spotted Horse) and Dog Kelly was wounded because in the first round if you wounded someone, you could still advance. By round two, you had to kill.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#72629: Mar 26th 2022 at 7:34:53 PM

She's killing a rapist. Did she kill anyone else after that who wasn't Herod?

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#72630: Mar 26th 2022 at 7:45:32 PM

Potentially the wrong thread to ask this question in, but how do people feel about avoiding usage of the phrase "Magnificent Bitch" for future female examples in favor of Magnificent Bastard in the gender-neutral sense?

For one, it can be spoileriffic to use such overtly gendered terms for examples that are meant to be a surprise, and generally we try to avoid redirects unless necessary (see: the situation in which YMMV pages may have arbitrarily separate entries for Les Yay and Ho Yay despite the two being literally the same thing).

Secondly, while I'm not extreme enough to support eliminating all instances of the word "bitch" from our lexicon entirely, there's also the potentially sexist aspect in calling a female antagonist a "bitch" when the only connection to the term is in being female, as opposed to using "bitch" to refer to a particular personality type (such as Bitch in Sheep's Clothing) that isn't as necessarily coupled to gender.

Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 26th 2022 at 1:02:47 PM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#72631: Mar 26th 2022 at 8:02:37 PM

My feelings on that are that Bastard is technically gender neutral, but it's sort of inherently gendered the way something like Bossy is. Most of the time when someone uses the term bastard, they're referring to men. I do think there is something to be said for the fact that we don't have true gender neutral one, so by that logic we maybe should just cut it, but I'll wait for the rest of the thread to chime in.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
magnumtropus Since: Aug, 2020
#72632: Mar 26th 2022 at 8:14:04 PM

I agree with Alley Oop. The word "bitch" tends to mean "a woman with a deeply unpleasant personality". While many of our female candidates do morally questionable stuff, calling them "bitches" feels a bit too extreme, especially when they are nice and affable.

Edited by magnumtropus on Mar 26th 2022 at 3:20:11 PM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#72633: Mar 26th 2022 at 8:16:24 PM

I'm fine with bitch. If they're morally dubious enough for this trope, I don't see the issue with calling them something unsavory. Especially since none of them are real.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#72634: Mar 26th 2022 at 8:21:56 PM

"Bastard" is a male-specific insult that means exactly what it sounds like, too: an unpleasant man. If we want to discuss making the trope more gender neutral and "all-encompassing" in wording in some way, then ok, but it's not at all sexist to adjust the male-oriented "bastard" to the closest, similar-sounding term for an "unpleasant" female, "bitch", and I personally don't see much of an issue.

Edited by Ravok on Mar 26th 2022 at 8:23:36 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#72635: Mar 26th 2022 at 8:39:43 PM

Yes to the Lady and Shinobi. Get better Scraggle. I don't know if I feel comfortable changing Magnificent Bastard to a gender neutral term until the day comes when a nonbinary MB gets approved if they haven't already.

Edited by Klavice on Mar 26th 2022 at 8:45:11 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#72636: Mar 26th 2022 at 8:40:05 PM

I think we're fine continuing the term usage the way we are. That's just me though.

Cassian is the second for Common by the way.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 26th 2022 at 8:53:27 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#72637: Mar 26th 2022 at 8:44:40 PM

Yes to Cassian, the Lady, and the Shinobi.

Has The 100 ever been discussed here?

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#72638: Mar 26th 2022 at 8:52:59 PM

I don't feel too strongly about it, but I'd prefer to eliminate "Magnificent Bitch" and make everyone a bastard (I think That Came Out Wrong evil grin). That being said, I'd like to caution that if the change is made it may take me a while to get used to it and I still may put bitch instead of bastard by mistake out of habit.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#72639: Mar 26th 2022 at 9:18:42 PM

Personally I'm with Ravok on this one. Also for the record I can name 1 keeper that is non-binary and one other that technically doesn't have a gender.

TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#72640: Mar 26th 2022 at 9:18:58 PM

Yeah same with future, I think how we use the term now isn't really an issue. Considering a lot YMMV pages don't hide who the candidate is, the concern of using the term "bitch" isn't really much of a spoiler unless it was deliberately hidden in which case they are usually label as bastard anyway. I mean if your looking at the YMMV page in the first place, I think spoilers aren't your biggest concern.

Also, I'm not sure about agreeing that using the term bitch immediately means it's a sexist term, because a lot of guys are also called that to since there's a lot of interpretation for the term, sure it is more associated with girls but even then I don't think it's an issue. And I have to disagree that the term use isn't just because the character is female, because to be in this trope you have to unpleasant and do some heinous deeds. Even if a character has good sides to them, it doesn't mean they aren't still a bastard or a bitch so I don't see that argument too.

Honestly this feels like trying to forcefully push away gender terms completely, which I think it's a little much personally. I respect if you don't want to be referred that, it's your right, but I don't think it's right either to really push people to think your way too, it's fine to express it but there's definitely a bit of a line where it becomes pushy.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#72641: Mar 26th 2022 at 9:19:14 PM

Fine with things as they are.

TaylorHyuuga from Rokkenjima Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
#72642: Mar 26th 2022 at 9:32:03 PM

Ooh, Rufus was approved. This is what I get for not checking this much, I could have chimed in. What's the policy on Magnificent Bastard spoiler tags? I would like to tag the Reverie information, because that game has not been officially released in English yet.

Edited by TaylorHyuuga on Mar 26th 2022 at 10:33:25 AM

<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#72643: Mar 26th 2022 at 9:35:52 PM

[tup] Verance, Cassian and Shinobi

Abstain on Ellen

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#72644: Mar 26th 2022 at 10:08:49 PM

[up][up] They’re allowed on YMMV pages, but not actual Magnificent Bastard subpages.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#72645: Mar 26th 2022 at 10:09:50 PM

For what it's worth, I'm seeing more usage of the term "bastard" for women so it is in the process of becoming a degendered and less masculline-centric term in at least the circles I go in.

"Bitch", like "shrew", doesn't have to be sexist or gendered, but it has some very specific personality implications when used in conjunction with women that the more-encompassing term bastard (person of any gender who does morally questionable things) doesn't quite have when applied to men.

For what it's worth I have seen efforts to attempt to degender "bitch" so it's less of a way to attack women specifically (it's still frequently used by misogynists to slur women for not being an Extreme Doormat), and more about a very specific kind of negative personality type that is unpleasant regardless of gender (for example, Bitch in Sheep's Clothing is a trope that can also be used for male characters). That particular usage of the term "bitch" is not the most appropriate term when used in conjunction with female Magnificent Bastards who are genuinely Affably Evil, for example.

Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 26th 2022 at 1:11:19 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#72646: Mar 26th 2022 at 10:14:05 PM

This is going beyond the scope of the thread at this point... it's a conversation we've had before and elected to use both Bastard and Bitch in conjunction with the trope, as is done with Manipulative Bastard. I'm with Ravok on this one and I'd be rather annoyed when I specifically asked about this and now being told to go change many wicks for something purely cosmetic. Regardless it's prefaced with "Magnificent"... I think the point that "These characters have moral flaws but they're cool and smart" can be inferred and that takes away from the "It's disrespectful or sexist" argument.

Yes to the John Wicks, Verence and the Lady.

Edited by 43110 on Mar 26th 2022 at 1:15:24 PM

TBNY (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#72647: Mar 26th 2022 at 10:32:06 PM

@jjjj2 yeah, she blows up a pair of snipers overlooking the clock tower. Basically, allowing Herod a win if Cort ended up hitting him.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#72648: Mar 26th 2022 at 10:36:14 PM

Okay at this point I'm getting she's only killing an Asshole Victim, people who work for the Big Bad and the Big Bad himself. She only wounds someone else, in a textbook example of Just a Flesh Wound, and I'm not even sure how villainous we can say blowing up the buildings is, since the Big Bad owns them all. I'm just seeing a Guile Hero here. I'm a [tdown].

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#72649: Mar 27th 2022 at 12:04:41 AM

Yeah switching to a no on The Lady.

Most examples that hurt Asshole Victim also get a bystander or other innocent person caught in the crosshairs. If she just goes after the Big Bad, I'm not feeling her. An action movie has a different Bastard standard when it comes to characters. If it didn't, literally every character Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger play would count or at least most of them.

Speaking of Stallone, has anyone from the Rocky films been proposed? Clubber Lang might make a nice example for Mr T.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#72650: Mar 27th 2022 at 12:06:59 AM

Clubber Lang is too brutish for this.


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