During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
It's in the Drafts, I'll run the spelling error in Ford's write up by the locked pages thread myself since it's literally one letter.
Also this may just be me but with the page quote for Power Rangers being that specific Mirloc quote, the first sentence of his write up feels weird to me since it basically is the same quote verbatim.
Speaking off how about a Power Rangers Video. Onikage from Wild Force.
You can title it Onikage's true allegiance.
With the description of "I am but a humble ninja serving his one true master."
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I have my second Discworld candidate and the last one for now from the 6 books I've read. This one today is from the 6th book Wyrd Sisters which serves as one big humorous homage to Macbeth.
The book opens with King Verence of Lancre being literally backstabbed by his cousin Lord Felmut after being egged on by his far more evil wife. The Lord and Lady Felmut don't take into account the dead King's son being whisked away a loyal servant and the baby and crown being delivered safely into the hands of our starring characters. A coven of not-so-wicked witches, Esmerelda "Granny" Weatherwax (the crone), Gytha "Nanny" Ogg (the mother), and Magrat Garlick (the maiden) give the baby, who they name Tomjon, to be raised by a group of traveling actors and hide the crown among the props. Here the trio are content to live out their lives until the slowly growing insane Lord Felmut provokes them for their involvement in the affair, and begins a tale of both a people and land turning against a duo of terrible rulers. Granny Weatherwax herself is solid keeper but I'd need to read the rest of her books and that will take a long time, but my candidate today is a character who helps to set off the whole affair to finally find his peace.
Who is King Verence?
Taking the role of King Duncan in this homage, Verence is what the people of Lancre called a "good king." He was a charismatic and boisterous man who loved hunting, drinking, and living life to its fullest, and he loved the land and its people and they loved his back. Sure, he often hunted people for sport, but only criminals. Sure, he often burned down cottages when his temper flared, but he always made sure the occupants got out and payed to rebuild when he calmed down. Sure, he loved to invoke his right to Droit du Seigneur, but this was one of the reasons why the commoners loved him so much and he even sends them a bag of silver the next day. Alas, Verence was drunk on life and always lived in the moment, which is why it was so easy for Lord Felmut to stab him and send him tumbling down some stairs. Rising as a ghost, Verence is shown the ropes by Death and other ghosts in the castle and he learns that only his relatives, the psychically inclined, and cats can see him and he is doomed to haunt his resting place until he can find peace.
Luckily for Verence, the vices of the flesh no longer hinder him as a ghost so his actual intelligence and cleverness finally shine through. From having a strong vitality in life, Verence is able to learn to move small objects with force of will and begins haunting Felmut and moving along his own guilt induced insanity. His personal favorite ploy is to drops consecutively more pieces of salt into Felmut's oatmeal each morning until the food is inedible. All this petty revenge gets him no where at first, but one day he spots Nanny Ogg's vicious cat skulking around the castle. Recognizing a cat like that can only belong to a psychically inclined witch, he performs a spot of trickery and lures the cat into a storage room and pushes the door closed to trap it. This eventually causes Nanny to follow her cat's stench to the castle, wherein she is immediately captured by a paranoid Lord Felmut believing the witches were coming to get him.
While in the dungeon, Verence apologizes to Nanny for the trickery and begins conversing with her and getting on her good side. He plots with her to get him out of the castle, with both ofthem knowing the other witches would come to the rescue. Lord and Lady Felmut arrive to torture Nanny for information, but she badmouths them and Verence takes the opportunity to grab the dagger used to kill him and tries to use it to murder Felmut in revenge. In the meantime, Granny and Magrat each try to launch their own rescue, and arrive to find the Lord and Lady menaced by the dead King. Granny stops him from killing them because "a dead King killing a live one ain't natural", and frees Nanny from her stocks. An insane but still lucid Lord Felmut uses their appearance at the castle to turn the common people against them and this proves to be the last straw. On the way back home, it's revealed Verence had the idea to have Nanny store a brick from the castle in her apron and allow him to hitch a ride with her. He implores the witches to help restore his son to the throne as the land itself is rejecting the cruel new Lord and Lady, and the coven reluctantly agree.
Verence mostly stays on the sidelines until the climax, but stays at the witches' side to help them plot. Granny casts a spell over the whole country to move it forward in time to age Tomjon to 18, and lets destiny take its course for him to come back to Lancre. This destiny, ironically, comes from Lord Felmut who sends off for a group of actors to perform a play filled with anti-witch propaganda. Tomjon and the troupe wind up coming back to Lancre to perform the play in time for the climax of the book. The witches come to see the play and discover the plan against them and a series of shenanigans and coincidences lead them to performing their own roles. In the meantime, Verence tries to reconnect with his long lost son, but Tomjon can't see him at all. The three witches quickly derail the play and Lady Felmut calls for their arrest while Lord Felmut reaches the breaking point. What tips him over is Verence possessing Tomjon and forcing him to recite the original order Lady Felmut gave to her husband to murder the King in front of all Lancre.
The now completely mad Lord Felmut accidentally kills himself by climbing on a battlement and falling into the ravine below, Lady Felmut is brained with a cauldron by Nanny and sent to the dungeons, and Tomjon reluctantly takes the throne despite not knowing what the hell is going on. Over the last 18 years of his life, Tomjon had grown to love acting more than anything and decides to reject the crown and return to being a thespian. Although saddened and disappointed by his son's decision, King Verence accepts it and is able to finally find peace and fade into the afterlife.
Is he magnificent?
It's repeated throughout the book the King was a boisterous and beloved figure full of life that was charismatic enough make him a popular figure among the common folk. We see this more in death as he's able to rather effortlessly charm the witches into helping him depose Felmut, in particular able to catch the normally infallible Granny Weatherwax into being charmed by calling her the doyenne of witches. While I wouldn't have called him a schemer in life, he does far better in death. No longer constrained by hunger, libido, or adrenaline, his natural intellect is able to shine through and he is able to use trickery and Loophole Abuse to both draw the witches into conflict with Felmut and to get out the constricted confines of the castle. In the end, all his work even comes to fruition and he is able to move on.
Is he a bastard?
He's noted in life to do some unsavory things like hunt people and burn down cottages, but this is all lessened by the restraint he shows in doing these acts. Notably, though, he still does imprison Nanny's cat to lure her to him for aid which nearly gets her tortured, but he does show some remorse for it. Overall, most of the bad that Verence does is played for laughs and downplayed, but he is still noted to have had villainous traits in life and still retains some of that as a ghost. So I'm thinking he does enough to qualify here.
Any mitigating factors?
Let's point out one major bug bear here though. Droit du Seigneur, the right of a lord to be the first to sleep with a newlywed wife after her marriage. Normally, this is played off as rape and a major evil act for a villainous noble, but this is not at all how it's played in the boom for Verence. Lightened and play for comedy, this is actually one of the things the commoners liked about Verence. It's noted in-universe that Lord Felmut's zero interest in it is one of the things the people don't like about his reign as it makes him seem impersonal and uncaring about the people. I'm pointing it out that this is not played as rape on Verence's part and is not disqualifying.
Final Verdict?
Funny to have a character that better qualifies in death, but Verence plays a pivotal role in the plot and none of it would have happened had he not drawn the witches into the conflict through trickery and deceit. I'm thinking a
here.
Gonna have to ultimately abstain on Jonah. He absolutely has all the hallmarks, BUT his willingness to let the entire world get annihilated by Ghidorah—whether intentional or not—is a big no-no since it's really not that smart a decision to make AND by retrieving Ghidorah's head—and likely causing the creation of Mechagodzilla—it means he does it again and that definitely doesn't endear him to this.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 26th 2022 at 10:20:50 AM
Yes to Lanferelle, Lumina, mir's video, and Verence.
Abstain on Jonah.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadFor my John Wick!
From the second film: Cassian.
Who is Cassian?
Tall, dark and handsome, Cassian is a ruthless bodyguard and hitman, the hired guard of Gianna D'Antonio, head of the D'Antonio family and a former acquaintance of John Wick himself. Cassian is a devoted follower and takes his job seriously, meaning he takes it very personal when John arrives to kill her. Gianna, choosing to die on her own terms, slits her own wrists and John shoots her corpse as he was demanded to by his brother.
Upon seeing John, Cassian instantly realizes what's happened and attacks him, but John escapes. Cassian is able to track and trap John, in a brutal fight that ends with them arriving at the Continental- a neutral ground that nobody can breach the sanctity of under pain of death. John and Cassian talk and Cassian admits he fully understands John being forced into this.
But he still feels honor bound to avenge Gianna. Cassian tracks John to New York and uses his own skills to ambush John and always gets the better of him. After a duel with knives, John wins and stabbing Cassian in the chest. Cassian is given a choice: to leave the knife in with a chance to live and end the hunt, or pull it out and bleed to death.
Cassian is last seen smiling to himself, his location unknown.
Mitigating issues?'
Nope, Cassian is a worthy match to and almost as good as John Wick himself. He's a ruthless, practical, talented hitman and bodyguard very, very good at fighting and uses his brains and skill in a deadly combo. He's composed as it gets and driven by honor.
It doesn't hurt that Cassian is, despite being a ruthless hitman attacking John, an honorable man, too. He admits he knows John isn't the real villain but he also cared deeply for Gianna and intends to avenge her. That means John's gotta die.
Conclusion?
Keeper.
Yes to Verence and Cassian, who is not a Common assassin
Lanferelle, King Verence, and Cassian.
Abstain on Jonah.
What the Work?
The Quick and the Dead is a 1995 Western directed Sam Raimi and starring an All-Star Cast with the likes of Sharon Stone, Gene Hackman, Leonardo DiCaprio, and Russell Crowe, with supporting parts with Lance Henriksen, Keith David, Tobin Bell, Gary Sinise, and others.
What's it About?
Well, "The Lady" (Stone) is a gunfighter who rides into Redemption one day, a frontier town run by John Herod (Hackman). The Lady joins a fast-draw tournament in an attempt to exact revenge for her father's death.
Who is The Lady?
The night of The Lady's arrival, she is signed up to the fast-draw competition where she sees her competition, including The Kid (who claims to be Herod's son and supplies the town of their weapons and bullets), Ace Hanlon (who supposedly shares the same kills as Herod), and others. While the Lady is being gushed over by the Kid, Herod's henchmen arrive in the saloon they were in and process to hang ex-gang member turned preacher Cort, who The Lady saves. Because of her quick shooting, she is signed into the tournament.
The Lady goes through the first round of the tournament and defeats Dog Kelly (who was left to die after she stole his stuff in the desert). She befriends Cort and the Kid, and later, she has an impromptu draw with Eugene Dred, who raped the saloon owner's young daughter during an evening rainstorm. After shooting him in the groin, she heads back to the saloon to get a drink only for Dred to come barging in and the Lady force to kill him.
The next day, The Lady, upset over the night before and seeing various people die in the tournament (including the idea of seeing Cort die), leaves town. The Lady is found by town doctor "Doc" Wallace, who knows who she is. The Lady's real name is Ellen and a girl, she lived in the town with her Marshal father only to watch him be hang by Herod, who took over the town for himself. Giving her a choice and a gun, Herod forced her to save her father by shooting the rope. Because she was young, she ended up shooting her father in the head, killing him.
Ellen, finding out her father's body was dug up by Herod's men, burned it, and smashed his tombstone, arrives back to town to help Cort fight against Herod. However, Ellen finds out her chance to kill Herod is cut short when she finds out that the Kid has always drawn his name to fight Herod, which he is outclassed by Herod is killed by him, with him not knowing if he was his father or not. Ellen and Cort are forced to fight next and Cort manages to shoot and kill her, leaving Cort and Herod to face off.
However, the next morning when the town is about to watch them duel, selections of the town explode and Herod's own house as well, thanks in part to some well-placed dynamite. Right before Herod tries to shoot Cort, Ellen walks out from the smoke and debris and Cort kills Herod's henchmen to make it a fair fight. Ellen shows she had faked her death with help of Doc, ink, and Cort. She throws him her father's badge and although Herod manages to shoot her, Ellen manages to kill and gain her revenge by killing Herod, before leaving town saying, "Law came back to town."
Mitigating issues?
No. Ellen/The Lady is a woman who merely wants revenge, even if that means killing anyone fast-draw tournament. She cares about both Cort and the Kid, especially since he's just a teenager, and even tries to get him out of facing Herod.
Bastardy?
Yes. In a fast-draw tournament where you have to kill or be killed, Ellen/The Lady manages to outlast her competition through sheer wit.
- Although she doesn't kill him, she wounds Dog Kelly and makes him leave through embarrassment.
- She kills Dred only after she finds out that he had raped the daughter of the saloon's owner.
- She fakes her death by using Cort to miss and ink sold by a blind boy vendor, as well as using the help of Doc to make her appear to be dead.
- When it comes time to blow up the town, she uses the Kid's own barrels of gunpowder and some dynamite to execute her plan, using it to blow up various points of the town owned by Herod.
- Finally, when it comes to killing Herod, she has weakened him with no support from his henchmen and has him one-on-one which she wins, even after being wounded by him.
She destroys a fast-drawn tournament, the man behind it, and destroys a bulk of the town. All because the bastard had her kill her father.
Conclusion?
A keeper for sure.
I also need to forget how to scale back these write-ups.
Edited by TBNY on Mar 26th 2022 at 3:45:08 AM
So, I'll probably have some decent thread time in the coming week or two...uh, Dad and I have COVID. Not fun.
Yes to Cassian (sure to the Lady, too—always love a good Western candidate, and it reminds me I got a lady of my own to post from a Corbucci) and my contribution to this collab...appropriately enough, from John Wick 3.
What have the Shinobi done?
These two are the Co-Dragons of master ninja assassin Zero, his top students (and here's the fun part; they're played by Cecep Arif Rahman & Yayan Ruhian, AKA the respective antagonists of Raid and its sequel—this is how you know they've mastered the badass fight sequence). Mild-mannered sushi chefs off the clock and ruthless operatives of the Continental when they're on, the Shinobi help Zero slice-and-dice his way through obstacles of the Continental as they're directed by the Adjudicator, like the Bowery King's men and the Director's guards.
It's where they face off with Wick himself that we get more to them than "faceless, ruthlessly competent minions." In the film's penultimate fight, one of the greatest in the series, the two Shinobi ambush John after he's gone through a gauntlet of Zero's other students, and nearly kill him on the spot then and there.
...and then they help him onto his feet so he can fight back.
See, like Zero, the Shinobi are total fans of John Wick, and elect Honor Before Reason; they seem totally uninterested in killing him, just sparring with him, because fighting John Wick is awesome. They even throw away a second opportunity where they could kill out of sheer respect for Wick.
Ultimately, while it's still a damn close match, John soundly defeats the two of them. By that point, the feeling of respect is wholly mutual, and Wick spares their lives with a final "be seeing you," and the Shinobi graciously concede defeat.
Are they magnificent?
Holy shit, yes. It's weird that Honor Before Reason accentuates how awesome they are, but not only are these two good enough to go toe-to-toe with John Wick, they're good enough to open several opportunities they could just kill him—and throw them away, because they're in it for the fight against one hell of a Worthy Opponent.
In the world of John Wick, you have to be a badass among badasses to stand out. This, paradoxically, is why I don't think Zero counts...he's close, but unlike with the Shinobi, the filmmakers grind in that Zero will be Always Second Best hard. By the end fight, John Wick is throwing literally every single trick Zero's employed back in his face, and he dismisses Zero quite a bit more curtly than he does the Shinobi. Zero takes it all in good stride, sure, and he is an indisputable badass himself, but the Shinobi have none of his failings with five times less screentime.
Are they bastards?
They're ninja assassins. As affable as they are, they're ruthless killers for the Continental, and the attacks on the Director and the Bowery King leave a long body count behind them. But like Cassian, they temper that with such honor it's enough to make John Wick decide to spare them out of respect.
Conclusion?
Keepers. If these two don't return for 4 or 5 I'm gonna be pissed.
Edited by Scraggle on Mar 26th 2022 at 4:56:29 AM

I'm down for the rewrite mate!