During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Next Justified EP.
Who is Mags Bennett? What has she done?
Mags Bennett is the aging matriarch of the Bennett clan, a family of moonshiners, marijuana dealers, and all around criminals who are the collective archenemies of the Givens', the family of series' protagonist US Marshal Raylan Givens. The Big Bad of Season 2, Mags enters the show murdering Walter McCready for calling the police when his daughter was being harassed by a sexual offender; Mags tells Walt as he dies that he should have come to her instead of going "outside" Bennett township, which she rules as her own private fiefdom. She then takes in Walter's daughter, Loretta, to raise as her own, remarking she's "never had a girl before."
Mags works out a deal with Harlan gang boss Boyd Crowder to take on the Black Pike Mining Company, who are coming to Harlan with the intent of opening new operations and buying up land to do so. Mags rallies Harlan County against Black Pike and has her sons intimidate anyone who might sell to Black Pike, instead getting them to sell to her, while Boyd, who has been working with Black Pike agent Carol Burnett, begins buying up land that the company needs. Mags and Boyd then sell the land that she and Boyd have bought between them to Black Pike for an extortionate price, selling out Harlan in general and Bennett township in particular to the mining company. Mags—who has spent all season keeping a rein on her younger sons, Dickie and Coover, even breaking Coover's hand with a ballpeen hammer when he and Dickie tried to hijack an Oxy bus without her permission—then tells Boyd that he can have run of Harlan, as long as he stays out of the marijuana business, which will always be Bennett territory.
Mags' son Coover goes rogue at this point and after revealing to Loretta that her father is dead, tries to kill her, only to be killed by Raylan. Mags meets with Raylan's Aunt Helen and agrees to hold her side of the Givens/Bennett feud, admitting her own responsibility for Coover growing up to be an imbecile and a drug addict. She shifts all the blame for the murder to Coover, escaping any legal consequences, and gives Dickie the marijuana business before severing all ties to him—she, her oldest son Doyle (who is also Chief of Police), and Doyle's sons will be getting the benefits of the Black Pike deal and getting out, while Dickie stays in Harlan, where the Bennetts are now hated for selling out. Dickie tries to undo his mother's deal with Boyd, but is quickly outmatched by Boyd who robs him; recognizing one of Boyd's men as Arlo Givens', Raylan's father, he breaks into Arlo's home and murders Raylan's Aunt Helen. Arlo and Raylan both want revenge, but in the end, manage to persuade Mags to give up Dickie, who is arrested; Mags then persuades one of Dickie's henchmen to take the fall for the crime, and springs her son from prison.
Boyd and Mags meet to discuss their problems, while Mags sends a team, led by Dickie, to raid Boyd's home while he is absent. Boyd has recently had a number of his old white supremacist colleagues, including his main muscle, Devil, move into his home, and they fend off the attack, though not before Dickie shoots and nearly kills Boyd's girlfriend, Ava. She also sends men after Boyd's handicapped cousin Johnny, who gets away by blowing up his own house. Loretta comes back to town and is used as bait by Dickie to lure in Raylan, whom he attempts to beat to death with a baseball bat (Raylan crippled Dickie during a baseball game twenty odd years earlier). Boyd saves Raylan, who heads to town where Loretta, having escaped Dickie's henchman Wade, holds Mags at gunpoint and demands the truth about her father's death. The US Marshal's arrive to back Raylan up and after Doyle is killed in a shootout, Raylan reaches Mags' store in time to see Loretta shoot Mags after Mags confesses. Raylan gets Loretta out, and he and Mags briefly chat, before Mags, with two of her sons dead and her empire about to fall, commits suicide using the same poison (and same speech she gave) when she killed Loretta's father.
Mags' influence doesn't stop there though. Season 3, as mentioned before, becomes in part a battle over her legacy with Limehouse acting as executor of her will and ensuring that Mags' wishes for Loretta to inherit all the family marijuana money come to pass. Loretta remains a recurring character on the show, and while she may have sided with Raylan in Season 2, it becomes apparent it is Mags' influence which has lasted, and by Season 6, she is mirroring Mags' actions, buying up land in Harlan, giving speeches that would raise the dead to revolution, and doing everything she can to take Mags' place as marijuana kingpin (queenpin?) of Harlan.
What's her competition like? How does she perform against them?
In Season 2, Mags is up against the Black Pike Mining Company, and of course, Boyd Crowder and Raylan Givens. She forces Black Pike to roll over and give her exactly what she wants, and gets Boyd to help her do it, giving him control of the entire county save the marijuana business in exchange for his assistance. When Dickie sets off a war between himself and Boyd, Mags trades Boyd (who, pre Season 5 Character Derailment is at the top of his game here) tit for tat, while also keeping the Marshal service off of them until the very end of the season. Even with Dickie and Coover undermining her at every turn, Mags stays on top until the very end, when Loretta's return and Raylan moving to protect her throw everything out of whack and set off the chain reaction that brings her down.
Within the wider show, no other seasonal villain ever exercised the kind of control over the story arc that Mags did. Bo was just getting out of prison and trying to reestablish himself, Robert Quarles was in a Villainous Breakdown from shortly after his first appearance, Theo Tonin was entirely hands off and Nicky Augustine was hands off until the end of Season 4, Daryl Crowe Jr. was an Opportunistic Bastard with no overall plan, and Avery Markham is the worst written villain in the history of the show and got upstaged by Loretta. Only Limehouse matches her in ability, and Limehouse was a wild card, not a Big Bad. Even weighed down by her sons, Mags is probably the most capable Arc Villain in all of Justified.
Is she a Chessmaster? A Manipulative Bastard? Is she capable of thinking on her feet?
For the first three quarters of Season 2, everyone, from Raylan to Boyd to Black Pike Coal Mining to the whole town of Bennett is being manipulated by Mags into helping her sell out to Black Pike and enrich her grandchildren. Some of them, like Boyd, are aware of their role in Mags' plan, while others, like Carol from Black Pike and most of Bennett, are caught completely flatfooted when Mags' end game becomes clear. The plan winds up working out too, with Mags' grandchildren now having the chance to go legit, in a way that she and her sons never had; even the eventual death of Coover, Doyle, and Mags herself cannot change this.
Mags is not only manipulative on the grand scale, but on the small one. If it hadn't been for Coover's utter stupidity, Loretta would never have found our her father was dead, and would have gone right on seeing Mags' as her mother figure and mentor, and even after she finds out, she still winds up becoming the kind of person Mags wanted her to be anyway. She toys with her sons emotions just as effectively, and in true abusive mother fashion, is able to get Coover to apologize to her while she's breaking his hand.
Mags' reaction when things don't go as planned are typically swift, ruthless, and to the point. When Dickie and Coover go behind her back and risk her plans, she punishes them brutally, and eventually cuts Dickie loose from the business. When Coover's death sees the murder of Walt exposed, Mags successfully blames the whole thing on Coover, saying he went rogue, and forcing the Marshal's Service to back off from investigating her for the time being. When Dickie's idiocy triggers a war with Boyd anyway, Mags steps back in and assumes control over Bennett operations, springing Dickie from prison and fighting Boyd to a standstill before the Marshal's arrive and tip the balance against her. It's made very clear every time she's onscreen that Mags is the key to the Bennett's success, and that their staying in business is entirely dependent on her.
How much of a Bastard is she? Does she have redeeming features? Is she capable of being charismatic?
Mags murders Walt McCready and steals his daughter, breaks Coover's hand with a hammer for going against her, cuts Dickie out of the family business because he's not the future, and rips off Black Pike coal mining and her fellow townsfolk alike in the name of benefiting her family. This is in addition to being, in the general sense, a thoroughly ruthless drug kingpin who rules Bennett township as uncrowned feudal overlord. Everyone's afraid of her and her sons and with good cause.
For all that her care for them is twisted and conditional, however, Mags does love her sons. She's extremely upset when Coover is killed, and Doyle's death is the final trigger for her suicide. She's also genuinely fond of Loretta and wants her to follow in her footsteps. She expresses disgust for meth and Oxy dealers (a group which includes previous Big Bad Bo Crowder, and future Big Bad Robert Quarles) and by way of a deal with Raylan's Aunt Helen, kept the Givens/Bennett feud a cold war instead of a hot one for twenty years, even after Raylan crippled Dickie in high school.
On the charismatic front, Mags could be your favourite kooky aunt if she weren't also a mobster and a bandit. She's well-respected in the community, hosts barbecue parties everyone is invited to, is the person Loretta comes to when she's being sexually harassed by Jimmy Earl Dean, and is just, in general, a lot of fun to be around and to watch, with even Raylan obviously liking her. Her suicide's honestly one of the show's saddest moments, in spite of all she's done, and a near perfect example of how to do Alas, Poor Villain well. You can see it here
.
Final verdict?
Mags is handicapped throughout Season 2 by having to deal with the stupidity of her sons, Dickie and Coover. Despite this, she runs Raylan and Boyd alike very close, and it's Loretta coming back to town, a situation nobody anticipated, that sets off the chain reaction that topples her. She's widely regarded in the fandom as the show's single best seasonal villain, and only Limehouse matches or exceeds her intelligence and ability to adapt. Her plan to ripoff Black Pike went perfectly, and even long after she's dead, her influence can still be felt over the show.
Thoughts?
Yes there, despite being pretty ruthless, she's got mad loyalty to her loved ones, a deviously brilliant mind and utilizes the hell out of her resources despite having the handicap of working with morons.
Also, here's another *snip snip*:
Ignoring the fact this is a ZCE trying to explain itself with a You Tube link, Moriarty is 100% undermined by how despicable he is. He's such a slime ball it's to the point I don't care if he's a Smug Snake or not, he's a Faux Affably Evil Chessmaster Manipulative Bastard but way too damn sadistic to be here.
edited 17th May '18 11:00:22 AM by 43110
to Mags. Few of the other antagonists even come close to the level of control she exerts. This is even in spite of her Hate Sink son Dickie screwing up, badly multiple times.
edited 17th May '18 11:03:47 AM by SophiaLonesoul
So uh so here's the Doctor Who examples
- Doctor Who: This show is littered with examples:
- The Master, in many of his incarnations. In the Delgado era, he was a suave foil for the Doctor, constantly trying to take over the world, using untrustworthy allies. In the Ainley era, he created a city for the sole purpose of trapping the Doctor, managed to foment a civil war among people who were convalescing, and nearly derailed the signing of the Magna Carta, among other schemes. Not to mention the time he held the entire universe for ransom, after destroying a tenth of it BY ACCIDENT. In the Simm era, he ran for and was elected Prime Minister. He took over the Earth, decimated the population with six billion robot beachballs of doom, tormented the main protagonists while dancing around his Cool Ship to "Voodoo Child" (by the Rogue Traders), and was generally bastardly. And magnificent. This was undone in the end, but still.
- Davros: In the serial "Revelation of the Daleks". After escaping from a maximum security prison, he adopts an alias and becomes a hero to the galaxy by alleviating famine. How does he do it? He uses the bodies sent to a planet-sized cemetery complex as the main ingredient for an "artificial" foodstuff. When the Doctor asks if he's actually told the general public about this, Davros says no, because "That would have created what I believe is termed 'consumer resistance'." Oh, and while he's doing all this, he's using other bodies from the complex to create (yet another) new race of Daleks. He was pretty bastardly in "Genesis of the Daleks" as well. When the Doctor convinced the Kaled government to investigate his research programs, he simply gave the Thals, his own people's arch-enemies, the information they needed to annihilate the Kaleds. Then he sent the Daleks to wipe out the Thals. Meanwhile, he carries out a purge of any surviving Kaleds whose conscience might hinder the Daleks' development. If you actually pay attention, you'll notice Davros isn't even so much as momentarily inconvenienced for the whole six episodes, despite the numerous twists and turns, up until the last few moments where the Daleks turn on him and (almost) kill him. Whoops. Even in the revival series, he's proven himself worthy of this title. In "The Witch's Familiar," Davros is able to finally regain the worship of the Daleks and steal the Doctor's regeneration energy to empower them, at least until the decaying ones in the sewers also gain said energy and start revolting.
- The Dalek Emperor "The Evil of the Daleks". Establishing a council of Smug Snakes to procure the materials necessary to destroy the Earth, and then manipulating the Doctor himself, making him isolate the "Human Factor" so that the Daleks could isolate the "Dalek Factor".
- Then comes the Dalek Emperor in "The Parting of the Ways". Having survived the Time War, he and the Daleks infiltrated Earth from 199,000 to 200,100, and slowly rebuilt the Dalek race during this period, whilst hiding from humanity and controlling it at the same time. He considers himself to be the god of all Daleks as a result of this, and the Daleks willingly worship himself as such.
- Ramon Salamander in "The Enemy of the World". A public benefactor for his own ends, he was consolidating power by engineering tectonic disasters. He did so by herding some people into a giant fallout shelter under the pretext of avoiding a war, and telling them the survivors were so warped it would be a mercy to kill them. Also, his supposed arch-nemesis was actually The Dragon (and The Starscream). When his plans went aft a-gley, he used his resemblance to the Doctor to get into the TARDIS (His cover did not last, of course).
- "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" gives us Well-Intentioned Extremists Sir Charles Grover and Professor Whitaker. Their plan was to turn back time to land their chosen few in the Mesozoic, undoing everything that had happened since. They also arranged that the head of the British Army's operations in London would be in on it, too.
- Taren Capel from "The Robots of Death" overcame more than a million subroutines per robot when making them forget the First Law of Robotics and turn on the humans, while impersonating a man assigned to a Sandminer.
- Li H'sen Chang from "The Talons of Weng-Chiang". Onstage, he was a star illusionist and the most popular act (albeit with some unfortunate facets to his act). Offstage, however, he was The Dragon for a fifty-first century mass murderer, very skilled in hypnosis, and quite possibly Jack the Ripper.
- Cessair of Diplos, from "The Stones of Blood". She absconded with part of a Cosmic Keystone and three silicon-based creatures, which she used as attack "dogs". With the ship hauling her to prison stuck in hyperspace by Earth, she passed herself off as a deity among the locals. For ages they fed her Ogri (with animal blood once human sacrifice was abolished), and she bought up the land her shrine was on, through the ages. Oh, and she may have been an agent of the Black Guardian.
- The Valeyard from "The Trial of a Time Lord". Of course, any bastard siphoned off of the Doctor while the latter was regenerating would HAVE to be magnificent, and the Valeyard almost succeeds in getting the Doctor executed, all the while plotting to wipe out the High Council. In the ensuing Gambit Pileup, his plan literally blows up in his face, but he survived and become Keeper of the Matrix. And even the Master was afraid of him. The Master's fear of the Valeyard was the ultimate reason for The Valeyard's defeat: Rather than risk facing the Valeyard (who is, being a version of the Doctor, MORE than capable of defeating any scheme the Master is likely to cook up) and risk being killed (the one thing the Doctor won't do to him) the Master opts to reveal the Valeyard's entire plan to the court itself FROM INSIDE THE MATRIX. He's the future Doctor (well, an Enemy Without) sometime between his 12th and final incarnations. Given how badass the Doctor has been already and how badass he's become in future episodes, this isn't surprising in the least.
- And then there's the plain vanilla Daleks that show up in "Victory of the Daleks". Eight of them (five of which were only created halfway through the story) in a broken-down, underpowered ship pull one plan after another with the Doctor as their Unwitting Pawn in both cases. They play the last of the Time Lords like a fiddle and use him to restore the Dalek race, before giving him an Sadistic Choice and forcing him to let them escape. The audience spends the whole story expecting the Doctor to bounce back and defeat them: he doesn't. They win. They absolutely school him. This just goes to show how much the Daleks have learned. Not to mention that the three Daleks that helped started this magnificent plan were, according to Word of God, what were left of the Crucible Daleks created from Davros' cells. Given Davros has been put in this very page, it's no wonder they count.
- The Dream Lord, the villain of "Amy's Choice". As befits his status as the manifestation of all the Doctor's self-loathing and malice, he is a magnificent one-episode wonder, complete with a classic Evil Plan, who really enjoys his work. The end of the episode implies we may see him again.
- Madame Kovarian, who leaves the Doctor thoroughly Out-Gambitted in "A Good Man Goes to War", managing to distract him from the real Melody Pond the exact same way she distracted him from Amy Pond, rendering all of the Doctor's incredible efforts completely moot with the most beautifully simple of schemes. And then she calls up just to mock him for falling for it.
Now I havent watched everything so cant comment on most of these. I will say Kovarian and dream lord are Smug Snake 's and unless things were different in the pre-revival series, Daleks dont have the charm needed to pull this off. Lighty do you have any thoughts on these other guys ?
edited 17th May '18 11:26:26 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Hell yes to Mags indeed. Now...
What's the work?
Gankutsuou is an acid trip of an anime by Studio Gonzo and a Sci Fi adaptation of The Count of Monte Cristo, as seen through the eyes of Albert Morcerf, a young man in an arranged engagement, the son of a great war hero and his beautiful wife. Albert lives a wealthy, privileged life, until one night he is abducted by bandits and rescued by the charming, mysterious Count of Monte Cristo...a mysterious man from off planet who seems to have an odd fixation on Albert's family...
Albert realizes soon that the man in his life, a man he is befriending and growing to trust, is far more dangerous than he appears. His true name is Edmond Dantes, a man once engaged to Albert's own mother, Mercedes...a man betrayed by his best friend, Albert's own father Fernand, left to rot and forgotten...but Dantes has returned and he wants his revenge on the men who unjustly stole his life...and he does not particularly care who gets caught in the crossfire.
Who is Edmond Dantes and what's he done?
Once an innocent, idealistic man, Edmond had his future set out for him. And then...thanks to the betrayal of three men, his old partner Danglars, his best friend Fernand and the prosecutor Villefort (who Edmond unwittingly had damning information on), Edmond's life was stolen from him. Shut away in a terrible prison, Edmond was forgotten by the world...until he made a pact with a dark being known as 'Gankutsuou.' Escaping prison, Edmond uncovered the lost fortune of Monte Cristo and then spent years planning his revenge, meticulously reinventing himself until no trace of that idealistic boy remained. Making a grand entrance into the world of Paris, Edmond targets Villefort, Danglars and Fernand by introducing himself to high society, becoming something of a sensation.
Now, the bandit Luigi Vampa kidnaps Albert to mutilate him and use him for ransom, only for the Count to interfere and save the day. Except...Luigi was Edmond's old partner when he was briefly a pirate after his prison escape. They planned this together so Edmond could appear to be the hero.
Edmond proceeds to ingratiate himself to the Morcerfs, the Danglars and the Villeforts, all while spinning his web...and the depths of his manipulations are revealed. Edmond seduces Villefort's wife and introduces her to poisons to kill off her own household, while tricking Villefort and Danglars into investing with him in a grand new venture. It's then he pulls off a few series of utter masterstrokes. Edmond has a young woman at his side named Haydee at all times, and it's revealed he rescued her...so she could spin around and accuse Fernand of betrayal, treason and murder (which he's guilty of), knowing that Albert will challenge him to a duel in response, so Edmond can kill Albert and teach Fernand was despair truly means.
For Villefort? One young bandit, Andrea, revealed to be Edmond's own catspaw? Edmond helps him fake credentials for the aristocracy, to help break up albert's engagement to his fiancee Eugenie, and have her engaged to Andrea...all while manipulating Danglars to complete financial ruin. Andrea is eventually discovered and arrested...but just as Edmond planned, it is revealed at trial that Andrea is Villefort's own illegitimate son with Danglars' wife, revealing everything in front of high society and destroying Villefort.
Edmond's duel with Albert ends up interrupted by Albert's best friend Franz fighting in Albert's place, losing and dying against Edmond, but dealing him a grievous wound that Edmond heals due to his own supernatural power. Edmond proceeds to destroy the minds of Villefort and Danglars when they have lost everything and turns his final attention to Fernand. Disgraced, Fernand attempts to launch a brutal coup against the government, only to face Edmond at last. Albert intervenes for Fernand's life and Edmond opts to have Albert killed. Realizing what his pride and treachery have led to, Fernand begs Edmond to kill him instead, but Edmond, with a cold smile, informs Fernand that he doesn't want his life, since death is so easy, but "your unending despair."
However...Albert manages to break through to Edmond after so long, finally breaking the cycle of hatred. However, when he lets go of his hate, Edmond's former wound manifests again and he dies in Albert's arms. Fernand decides to follow him and commits suicide, as the rest of the characters obtain a happy ending.
Now, is he charming, charismatic, able to think on his feet?
Oh god yes. Edmond is unbelievably suave, charismatic and compelling, capturing every single instant he's onscreen. People are drawn to him like moths to a flame and he's able to win friends and allies with incredible ease. No matter what he's doing at the time, Edmond dominates the show. As far as being a chessmaster guys? Hoo yeah. He plans his revenge meticulously, to the point he's finding people's long lost children to use against them, and when he gets thrown for a loop, he's instantly able to readjust and account for that. Nobody in series ever manages to get the better of Edmond by out-thinking him, or even out-fighting him.
While he does gain power from Gankutsuou, Edmond's schemes are down solely and completely to his own mental ability, only using his powers for karmic punishments when he's finished with everything else, or to heal himself.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Now, in the book? Edmond is incredibly sympathetic, but in the show, we see what he looks like without a sympathetic POV. He does appear, at many points, utterly despicable and cruel. His manipulations are callous and he shows absolutely no compunction at first over catching up his targets' innocent children or even their households. He does not feel guilty over Franz's death, and he attempts to kill the innocent Albert solely to hurt his father.
That said...Edmond never breaks from having redeeming features and sympathy. While he does use her for his plots, he truly cares for Haydee and treats her like his own child. And despite his plots, he genuinely, truly loves Albert as much as Albert loves him and one of his greatest challenges is killing his own care for Albert to take revenge on Fernand. One of the most memorable scenes of the show is realizing that he has lost Albert's love and respect, breaking down in seeming tears before it turns into triumphant laughter. Furthermore, a big part of the show at the end is Edmond letting go of his hatred at last, not being defeated convenionally, but because he finally lets himself stop hating thanks to Albert. I should also note that as much as he denies it, Edmond has never stopped being in love with Mercedes, and never seeks to actively harm her in his schemes.
He's a brilliant, compelling, tragic figure. A bastard to be sure, but you can see why and how.
Conclusion?
One of the single best, IMO, examples in anime. An unbelievably compelling, charismatic, ruthless manipulator who plays everyone in the cast and lays plan upon plan against all he sees. A terrific example, and an amazing show.
Here's a more interesting one to settle:
- Johan Liebert - the Monster. He manipulates everyone he encounters as they were puppets on a string and then disposes of them without a second thought, defies every Pet the Dog moment he's given in chilling ways, and never loses that Dissonant Serenity permanently affixed to his face. The problem is, the straight treatment the series gives his activities also makes him freaking scary to behold.
Now, I've spoken to a few of you about this guy and if someone would like to EP him, I'd be all ears but I'd really have to be persuaded for one fundamental reason: Johan is so calm all the time he comes across as much more creepy than charming to me and he's really fucking bad. Thoughts on cutting him for now at least?
Edit: Yes to the Count.
edited 17th May '18 11:30:46 AM by 43110
dantes
Lighty your familair with guys like pre-revival series master than me, could you take care of the Doctor Who stuff.
edited 17th May '18 11:30:50 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."From the Web Original Page
- The youtube show CinemaSins, which counts the mistakes, scientific errors, or bad storytelling decisions in movies, essentially calls Christopher Nolan one for the ending to Inception.
So you're not going to tell us whether he's dreaming or not? You're just going to let that top spin, wobble a bit, and then tease us with a cut to black? You brilliant motherfucker.
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Cut it and burn it to the ground
As for Johan Liebert, I feel like he might be one of the C Ms that may be able to count as a Magnificent Bastard. I wouldn't mind an EP for him.
edited 17th May '18 12:49:27 PM by ReynTime250
How would we feel about comedies, as long as the character is good enough at what they do? I'm looking at the show Blackadder, the third of the family line being the obvious one. He's the most evil of all the Blackadders, with some of the more impressive gambits (the first Blackadder is a total idiot, the second is a more charming rogue, the third is an evil butler and the fourth just wants to survive WWI), and the only one who actually wins out in the end.
Ive actually watched it as well. I'd personally be fine with an EP since Tropes Are Flexible. Credit where its due some of these schemes there are pretty brilliant.
Johan will go and I’m definitely open to your Blackadder proposal, Lighty.
Edit: From the YMMV page of 20th Century Boys, we also have:
- Magnificent Bastard: Friend.
edited 17th May '18 1:24:10 PM by 43110
Well that destroys my hope for E Ping Johan in the future.....Ah well, I think it'll save me and (probably) Ravok from the trouble E Ping him....(Although Makishima's still on my list so yeah)
And yeah to previous candidates
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."

edited 17th May '18 10:27:45 AM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."