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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#72226: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:01:02 PM

[up][up] I wish I would have saw that earlier because I made Power Rangers before I saw that. It just needs a description and quote.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#72227: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:02:03 PM

I don't think shredder and rita from the TM Nt crossover go on that page.

I thought crossover works aren't crosswicked here ?

Edited by miraculous on Mar 21st 2022 at 4:02:22 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Siegfried1337 Calabash. from The Eastern Luminant Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
Calabash.
#72228: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:02:33 PM

[up][up] oof

Going to transfer some things right now hang on

Edited by Siegfried1337 on Mar 21st 2022 at 4:02:42 AM

Eh, good enough.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#72229: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:02:39 PM

It’s my birthday so I don’t particularly wanna spend my evening dealing with this but with Margaery in particular, I found it’s someone who’s got all the pieces we look for and supplements it with genuine redeeming qualities to her manipulations and her agenda to use Tommen consists of stuff like protecting her gay brother from religious extremists and whose relationship to the king is punctuated with actual care and want for him to be happy, all set to a young woman who—squicky writing or not—is sleeping with someone her country considers an adult.

That’s where I’ve landed on it all.

Edited by 43110 on Mar 21st 2022 at 7:03:43 AM

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#72230: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:03:31 PM

I...don’t know. Both sides make good points, and I don’t know if I’m qualified to say anything. I will say I’m personally more lenient on cartoons like Jimmy Neutron because they’re more disconnected from reality than Game of Thrones and Casablanca. A work portraying a thing as right also doesn’t always make it right, even for the time.

Also, [up] happy birthday!

Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Mar 21st 2022 at 7:04:46 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#72231: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:04:26 PM

Happy Birthday 433110.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#72232: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:04:26 PM

Happy birthday 43.

[up][up][up][up]I swapped mine for yours but removed the TMMNT crossover as we don't normally include those. Now all we need is a quote and description.

Edited by Bullman on Mar 21st 2022 at 6:05:51 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#72233: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:05:20 PM

I can see why Sieg made that mistake as CM does include crossovers but yeah MB doesn't usually do so on the franchise pages.

TiMBer1566 kittykat from Virginia Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#72235: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:07:32 PM

Last thing before I check out… courtesy ping to ~Lore Deluxe since he did a very good EP on Marg and I’d like to keep him in the loop since we’re looking at relitigating a candidate he worked hard on.

Thanks for bday wishes folks, I’ll see y’all soon in far less sober mind!

Edited by 43110 on Mar 21st 2022 at 7:07:59 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#72236: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:07:45 PM

Would someone mind linking to Margery's EP? I have some thoughts I'd like to share but I'd think rereading it will help me articulate them properly.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#72237: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:07:51 PM

Oh, I seem to have missed that. Happy Birthday 43.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#72238: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:07:57 PM

Ayo happy birthday there, 43, hope it's a good one!

Everyone's making fair points that I completely get and in some cases agree with both sides on, and it's why I think case-by-case likely is what this needs to be settled on. Mentioning of Renault wasn't necessarily to compare him to Margaery or claim that he, too, should count if she does, but simply noting that Values Dissonance comes in different flavors and it's why I think we should take things case-by-case. Margaery is, quite plainly, doing nothing wrong by the standards of her society, and it's a society that is fully able to condemn someone for being a malignant, rapist monster like Ramsay. If that is a mitigating feature to her act that would of course naturally disqualify her from any modern work...that is what we're discussing here, I don't want nor need to hear about what is or isn't laws of consent in our modern world, I am talking exclusively about the world of Westeros and how the work plays Margaery's actions.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#72239: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:08:38 PM

Happy Birthday 43!

Yeah, I agree with Rav that even if it does effect how certain people vote, different consent laws are not really meant to be taken into account when it comes to this—as it's really just the work itself.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 21st 2022 at 4:11:38 AM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#72240: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:11:19 PM

I've been keeping an eye on this already and said my piece a while back. I don't see enough people budging to get the up votes she'd need for a write up.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#72241: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:12:12 PM

I'm fine if Margaery ends up going up. Partly because we've had certain other MBs come across this forum who don't do anything sexual like that, but still commit acts controversial. Namely Hannibal Lecter being a cannibal and serving flesh to people.

I'm not saying Hannibal Lecter needs to be scrutinized.

I'm just saying it's odd that most of the people in this forum are okay with a serial killer eating flesh and (occasionally) serving it to people, but having sex with a fifteen-year-old, even when the setting depicts this act as being okay within the context of the setting, is a big no-no. I've actually had this conversation with someone else outside this forum, and it feels like most of the controversy stems from how current laws are depicted in society nowadays, especially with underage characters. Which I get, but Game of Thrones has a widely different setting and different laws. Fictional characters and fictional countries may have differences when it comes to the legal age of consent and how sex is depicted within these fictional settings.

I get that this is a sensitive subject and all that. And this is obviously a case-by-case issue here. But in this case, I don't really mind Margaery going up.

Also Happy Birthday 43110.

-explodes confetti poppers at you-

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#72242: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:13:24 PM

Ravok: I get were you are coming from. Can someone link me her old ep? I don't think I was here for that.

Any quote ideas for Power Rangers, maybe comic Rita? Or description?

Edited by Bullman on Mar 21st 2022 at 6:14:45 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#72243: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:17:22 PM

Happy birthday 43!

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#72244: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:26:59 PM

…Sky knock it off…All that being said, having watched the relevant bits myself, talking this over and seeing how the show plays it I’m a yes to her now. Let’s keep this civil, I’m gonna be quick to holler anymore snarky responses.

43: Noted. Happy Birthday, btw.

I guess my take, Tyk, is that cannibalism is less common in real life than sexual predation, and therefore strikes less of a nerve with me, but I understand why you may differ.

Abstain on Margery.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 21st 2022 at 7:29:30 AM

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#72245: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:30:34 PM

I'm fine with, at worst, making that kind of clause case-by-case. May as well make that jump since we've accommodated MBs such as cannibals, those who killed child, and IIRC one who committed a karmic sexual act.

But that's something we really need to stress and be on the up-and-up about. Like, some Values Dissonance just shouldn't matter.

HBD btw, 43! Get turn't for me too.

Edited by erazor0707 on Mar 21st 2022 at 6:34:40 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#72246: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:35:50 PM

Happy birthday 43110

Glad we’re having this debate and hoping that Margery does get her write-up in the end

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Siegfried1337 Calabash. from The Eastern Luminant Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
Calabash.
#72247: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:36:09 PM

Happy birthday, 43110!

For the description of the MB page for Power Rangers, I would suggest this:

Eh, good enough.
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#72248: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:36:28 PM

Happy Birthday, 43110!

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#72249: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:37:37 PM

HBD 43

Again could someone please link to Margery's EP?

Also here's 2 possible Power Rangers quotes

“This is Mirloc. He’s one of the most brilliant masterminds ever. He’s had his hand in every dirty deal and he knows every shady character in the galaxy."
Commander Anubis "Doggie" Kruger, Power Rangers S.P.D., Reflection Part 1

“Don’t be so hard on yourself. I just stopped by to thank you for providing me with my escape. I’d love to stay and chat but, I have a lot of crimes to commit.”

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#72250: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:40:22 PM

Happy birthday, cap'n!

Taking a peek at the EP, Imma just abstain. Just... a little too gross for me, is all.


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