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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#72126: Mar 20th 2022 at 5:55:27 PM

[up][up]My thing with Hans Riley is he is how you should write a crossover. Every true crossover is more like him than they are like others CMs. There are tons of what I like to call pseudo-crossovers who have come through the thread. People like Darkseid, Palpatine, Teridax, Canaletto. One who hasn't come through the thread but who I would put on that list is Death from Castlevania (2017). All of these guys are charming, cunning and definitely evil. But that's the biggest problem, they are Capital E evil. Hans by contrast is only as evil as he needs to be, not anything more. It is true he is ruthless enough to be a CM which is how he was approved, but he's not sadistic, he's not petty. I will say if we do list him, we wouldn't need to list other CMs because 1) crossovers are so rare and 2) he would be the greats.

Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 20th 2022 at 9:03:44 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#72127: Mar 20th 2022 at 6:00:40 PM

Right, I totally get that. Here's the thing, though— we've talked a big game about how a crossover isn't something to aspire to. It's not a badge of honor. By putting a Greats entry that is specifically "How to Write a Crossover" I feel like we undo that message a bit.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#72128: Mar 20th 2022 at 6:11:33 PM

We could of course do nothing else to the page. I don't mind it staying the same.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#72129: Mar 20th 2022 at 6:18:26 PM

I've thought about putting Hans on that page and if we feel that a crossover is worth putting there he'd be it. Speaking of the page didn't most of us say that Oogway would be the best example for a Big Good entry?

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#72130: Mar 20th 2022 at 6:22:47 PM

[tup] to Dayne, Bael, Sera, Yukiko and Gaston.

[tdown] to the Not!Slaves (watched the skit and I don't think the one act of trickery is enough to push them to magnificent) and the Cat.

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#72131: Mar 20th 2022 at 6:24:57 PM

I just find Hans Gruber as a very notable exception and someone others like Palpatine or Heath Ledger's Joker haven't even gotten close to. Most MB examples I find have at least one redeeming quality to them that disqualifies them for being a CM: no killing innocents, genuine Pet the Dog moments, but Hans's only relatively good quality is that he's incredibly pragmatic in his evil.

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#72132: Mar 20th 2022 at 6:44:47 PM

About my query... would something like this be worth adding to administrative?

"When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if in a later instalment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route."

Thoughts?

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#72133: Mar 20th 2022 at 6:48:34 PM

I like it. [tup].

And yeah surprised we didn't have anything on it before.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#72134: Mar 20th 2022 at 6:52:01 PM

I like that addition to the admin post, will add now & thanks. Also yes to Gaston, no to the cat though.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#72137: Mar 20th 2022 at 7:50:54 PM
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#72139: Mar 20th 2022 at 8:56:56 PM

[tup]Gaston [tdown]the cat

So my thoughts on Hans and the encouraging CM/MB crossover issue. If he does go up, the writeup should put emphasis on how difficult it usually is for an overlap to occur and what a difficult balancing act it is. You need to simultaneously by heinous enough but at the same time charming enough, and Hans is a rare instance where neither area has disrupted the other.

And [tup] for the administration change

Edited by Snowy66 on Mar 20th 2022 at 8:58:14 AM

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#72140: Mar 20th 2022 at 9:19:12 PM

I'm asking for a single MB/CM crossover to be described because I see so many MB examples that have some sort of redeeming quality and, I don't know if I'm alone in this but I'm getting the perception that an MB must have some sort of good quality in them order to count.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#72141: Mar 20th 2022 at 9:20:13 PM

I can think of a few non-CM MB's that have no redeeming qualities (though that would also depend on what you define as one).

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#72142: Mar 20th 2022 at 9:30:43 PM

Crossovers are such a case by case basis, they need to be looked at individually for each one. In theory, a monstrous character can be so overwhelmingly charismatic that it overshadows their worst qualities.

Been thinking about Denathrius from World of Warcraft in that regard, considering he pretty much singlehandedly held up the current expansion.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#72143: Mar 20th 2022 at 9:37:25 PM

Yeah CM/MB crossovers are really hard to come by given their magnificence must over their monstrosity while not going overboard in their villainy.

I had Relius Clover up for a while until he was cut due to his experiments being considered too cruel, and I tried to get Tao Wu up as one myself but failed. Plus we had some crossovers cut after a second look so yeah they’re hard to come by.

That said I’m fine with the edit in the administration and the possible adding of Hans Grubber as one of the greats for troopers to read on how to identify a CM/MB crossover

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
TiMBer1566 kittykat from Virginia Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
kittykat
#72144: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:23:24 PM

When it comes MB/CM crossovers they generally tend to be MB first, CM second. If there are other CMs in the setting they happen to be the least heinous among them in comparison.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#72145: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:25:12 PM

CM/MB crossovers are also much harder to pull off in works with super high standards due to the issues of crossovers having a hard time standing out if they aren't pulling the super vile stuff that would disqualify them as a MB.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#72146: Mar 20th 2022 at 10:28:45 PM

Lighty already summed it up, it works best when the character is a Magnificent Bastard... who happens to be bad enough for CM and lack redeeming qualities. If we'd like a general trope intersection NSWIEs are quite common amongst them.

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#72147: Mar 20th 2022 at 11:53:43 PM

Redeeming qualities certainly help to make an MB more likeable, but they aren't essential. The only bastardry criteria is that they aren't over the top disgustingly evil, which many but not all CMs are. For a CM to have a chance, they should have relatively cleaner crimes that at the same time push past the heinous standard (less of the quality and more or the quantity).

Edited by Snowy66 on Mar 20th 2022 at 11:56:57 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#72148: Mar 21st 2022 at 12:09:00 AM

I also feel hurting children in any form, (Gruber holds kids as hostages and at gunpoint, but never outright hurts them) should be an immediate disqualifier for a crossover. Unless the main protagonist is a Kid Hero, like Xehanort and Sora, if we choose to put him up seeing as how he is not a CM.

But yeah no to the lion, Selina, and the cat. Yes to the ASoIAF characters, I finally got the books to read but have been reading the Wheel of Time with my mom lately.

And G, I'm also wondering if even if we chose to ignore Relius' experiments, we'd still have to contend with the fact he's a shitty father to his son, not unlike everyone's favourite G-Man from Pokémon Black and White.

[down] I actually haven't seen Die Hard.

Edited by Klavice on Mar 21st 2022 at 5:45:36 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#72149: Mar 21st 2022 at 12:20:26 AM

[up]Hans didn't hold kids hostage. In the third one, Simon threatened to blow up a school though, but he was bluffing. Yeah, a kid can be threatened or used as a bargaining chip by an MB (perfect example is how Safin was toward Mathilde), but they definitely can't be nasty or grotesque with the kid in any way, even if they kill the kid (again, Adam or The Creature strangling and killing Victor Frankenstein's much younger brother doesn't disqualify him).

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 21st 2022 at 12:24:14 PM

YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#72150: Mar 21st 2022 at 4:40:08 AM

[up][up] Yep. Plus, we have several current MB's who have harmed children, killed them, or in Spectacular Spiderman Norman's case, abused their own. They can harm kids, but in a way that is not overly brutal or harming them for the sake of harming them.


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