TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#71751: Mar 16th 2022 at 9:08:53 AM

I'll expect he'll be back... if George ever finishes.

Edit: Oh you were talking about the show, well the point still stands.

[tup]Saan.

Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 16th 2022 at 1:38:05 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#71752: Mar 16th 2022 at 9:10:39 AM

I hardly remember him if at all, but yeah, [tup] to Salladhar. Wonder who else is waiting in the wings. We have six for the show now as is.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 16th 2022 at 9:11:17 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#71753: Mar 16th 2022 at 9:10:57 AM

Don't count on that happening soon though . Think he recently said he's doing fire and blood 2 and dunk and egg first.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#71754: Mar 16th 2022 at 9:11:01 AM

Yes to Sallador. Been thinking about a couple more from the show myself, but not sure if they would make it.

I've been thinking to myself if Tycho Nestoris of the Iron Bank does enough clever to count, but then remember his bets all fall flat. The Bank does get their money from Cersei however.

Another on my mind was Mirri Maz Duur, but again not sure on her since she seems to "broken" to count.

Finally, of course, if there's any validity to do an effort post on the "Jaqen H'ghar" identity shared between presumably multiple Faceless Men.

Edited by LoreDeluxe on Mar 16th 2022 at 9:13:29 AM

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#71755: Mar 16th 2022 at 9:12:33 AM

Time for me to drop my next Fables candidate. We're still on the controversial side so far.

What's the work?

Another one of Aesop's Fables, namely here "The Lion and Ass Hunting".

Who's the Lion? What has he done?

The Lion decided here to team up with the Ass to hunt as a pair. Coming across a cave full of goat ; ergo, of prey, the Lion and the Ass came up with a plan : the Ass went inside and he "kicked and brayed and made a mighty fuss", frightening the goats — who are unaware of whose species they're dealing with — into running away from the cave… Where the Lion waited for them.

His stomach full, the Lion congratulates the Ass for his participation in their plan, though he mocks him by admitting that if he didn't knew he was an Ass, he'd have ran away too upon hearing him braying.

IN the days of old Aesop, it once came to pass
That a lion saw fit to make friends with an ass;
“For,” said he, “I well know, by myself, he can bray
In such style as to strike all the beasts with dismay.”

“Now you take the rear, I’ll proceed to the van,”
Said the lion; “then make the worst noise that you can;
They’ll be seized with a panic, I have not a doubt,
Which will end in their total dispersion and rout.”

So the ass bray’d a tune which he thought would succeed,
When the cattle made off with incredible speed;
Then the lion fell on them and made them his prey:
“Only think,” said the donkey, “how well I can bray.”

“Well,” said he to the lion, “pray how did it do?”
“Indeed,” said that beast, “Sir, you frightened me too;
And, had I not known it before, I protest,
I, myself, should have run with all speed, like the rest.”

Any mitigating factors?

Nah, we have here someone who essentially came up with a Batman Gambit, having the Ass lure out the goats of the cave while he's standing right in front of it, sealing their fate and later on trolls the Ass about his cry. Manipulation, magnificence, bastardry, it's pretty much there if you ask me.

There were issues on whether the Lion did have sufficient personality, but I'd say other versions such as the Jefferys Taylor one I put in the EP give more detail to his personality, and making fun of the Ass by the end of the story helps.

Verdict ?

Up to you guys.

Preemptive writeup

  • Aesop's Fables: "The Lion and Ass Hunting" : The Lion teamed up with an Ass to hunt. Coming up with a plan, the Lion decided to wait outside a cave full of goats while the Ass brayed, frightening the goats into leaving the cave and ending up as the lion's prey. Congratulating the Ass for his work, the Lion nonetheless trolls him by admitting he'd have been frightened and would've ran away as well if he wasn't aware he was an Ass.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#71756: Mar 16th 2022 at 9:25:10 AM

Lemme think on the Fable but we can talk the collective Jaqen once I finish the show together if you'd like Lore? Idk if it makes sense for one entry or a heading and the various ones who play him.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#71757: Mar 16th 2022 at 9:35:13 AM

Yes to Salladhor. Abstain on the Lion.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#71758: Mar 16th 2022 at 9:41:14 AM

[tup] for Plumm, Corlys, the Wolf (tentative), the Lillith quote, Saan, and the Lion (very tentative).

[tdown] for Victor.

YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#71760: Mar 16th 2022 at 9:48:00 AM

@43 I'm not Lore, but I like the idea. Haha.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#71761: Mar 16th 2022 at 10:13:00 AM

Who is Arthur Dayne? What has he done?

A legendary knight and quite possibly the most talented swordsman to have ever lived in Westros, Ser Arthur is also Prince Rhaegar Taharyen's best friend. A clever combatant, Arthur's legends tell of him defeating bandits and brigands for the people of Westros, even the dreaded Smiling Knight who managed to take down a young Jaime Lannister.

Also a skilled diplomat, Arthur saw to it the smallfolk of the country were well-attended even under the Mad King, Aerys II, making him immensely popular with them, much to the favor of Rhaegar. During Robert's Rebellion he was ordered to guard the allegedly kidnapped Lyanna Stark at the Tower of Joy. Even when informed the king and prince he serves are dead, Arthur remains steadfast in his duty while facing down Ned Stark and his retinue. Refusing to tell the reason why Rhaegar's best warrior wasn't permitted in the midst of battle he engages and easily cuts down Ned's companions. All set to dispatch the young Stark, a previously-wounded combatant jumps Arthur to stab him through the throat, downing him and letting a—clearly upset with how he won—Ned finish off the stoic knight.

Afterwards Ned winds up impressed with his courage and chooses to shelter his dead sister Lyanna's child with Rhaegar to raise as his own bastard. Of course the kid winds up being Jon Snow and we all know how that goes...

Actions and personality?

He's the stuff of literal legends, with his fierce tactical mind known and respectfully feared throughout the country. Even while just appearing in one scene proper he's a total show stealer and gives us a glimpse at his genius fighting style his history tells us all about. He's polite and charming to Ned but also fiercely devoted to his duty and makes sure no one gets a word from him to disguise the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Mitigating factors?

I'd love if Rhaegar himself could count given his own diplomatic and strategic brilliance but alas his making off with Lyanna without communicating anything really screws his chances in the end. Arthur is much the right hand here and he's responsible for the protection.

This is a role he plays out perfectly: sticking to his guns and not giving an inch, fighting brilliantly before getting blindsided.

Verdict?

My second keep.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#71762: Mar 16th 2022 at 10:16:44 AM

The working to better the smallfolk comes from the DVD special features yes? I think I want more than a skilled combatant (as awesome as his fight was), but the working to better the smallfolk I feel pushes him over.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#71763: Mar 16th 2022 at 10:20:42 AM

[tup]Dayne.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#71764: Mar 16th 2022 at 10:21:28 AM

He's dead in present and given how we've treated the "notes" characters the histories have given us I feel the constant ability to see criminals scourged and winning favour for the Rhaegar faction enough.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#71765: Mar 16th 2022 at 10:22:08 AM

No I agree, I just feel with his appearance alone in the show it's not enough, but with those supplements I do feel he passes. [tup]Arthur Dayne.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#71766: Mar 16th 2022 at 10:30:16 AM

[tup] for Salladhor Saan and Arthur Dayne.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Javertshark13 Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#71768: Mar 16th 2022 at 10:43:33 AM

Oh, yes to the One-Scene Wonder (in the main show) himself Arthur Dayne.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#71769: Mar 16th 2022 at 10:51:00 AM

  • Salladhor Saan is a roguishly charming pirate and friend of Ser Davos Seaworth. Offering to provide ships for Davos to fight for King Stanley Baratheon, when Davos' fleet is defeated, Salladhor merely resumes his life of pillaging on the high seas, paid handsomely by Davos and ultimately leaving the work richer.
  • Ser Arthur Dayne is a legendary knight and the best friend of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. A genius fighter, Arthur's guile is known far and wide for being the man to have purged Westros of countless criminals with his tactics and skill with a blade. Also a talented diplomat, Arthur keeps the smallfolk happy even during the reign of Rhaegar's mad father and ultimately helps his friend sneak away his child with Lady Lyanna Stark, dying only by being blindsided in combat, his duty fulfilled nevertheless.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#71770: Mar 16th 2022 at 10:51:22 AM

Sure to Arthur Dayne.

I guess another question on a potential. Is book Barristan Selmy too heroic for this? As one of Aerys's Kingsguard he allowed the Mad King to burn people alive and rape his wife due to the oath he swore him. Is that enough to push him over?

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#71771: Mar 16th 2022 at 11:01:09 AM

I have another book Kingsguard coming. Barristan might make it, but...he's not exactly doing great with mollifying Dany's worst periods ATM

Yea to Saan and Dayne.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#71772: Mar 16th 2022 at 11:01:23 AM

I would look for other stuff tbh... letting Aerys commit his burnings and rapes is something you'd like to argue he had no power to stop, since being complicit is stuff you don't want to have him linked to or selling him's going to be very hard. If that's all that he's really done wrong it's going to be a tough sell.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#71774: Mar 16th 2022 at 11:11:55 AM

Just the book version of Barristan? I was under the impression the show one was too heroic.

I definitely remember him. Of course [tup] to Arthur, the man who made sure Jon was born.

With Jaqen potentially counting as one (and maybe even more too), that'll make it 8-8 with MB matching CM for the show. You know the saying…

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 16th 2022 at 11:13:51 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#71775: Mar 16th 2022 at 11:14:27 AM

Almost certainly going to be more MBs than CMs, given they won't have to fight a heinous standard.


Total posts: 82,595
Top