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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#71727: Mar 15th 2022 at 7:57:49 PM

How is this quote?

"It's always brute force with you men, isn't it? But real corruption... is a thin, subtle blade. Sabrina's strength, the bonds that must be severed, are those to the mortals around her. The people she loves. But not to worry. I'm quite good at tearing souls apart. One piece at a time."

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Derv0sB2 Since: Apr, 2020
#71728: Mar 15th 2022 at 8:19:46 PM

Tentative [tup] to the Wolf.

Tentative [tdown] to Victor for reasons others have stated, although I recommend 227someguy that they keep trying if they find any future candidates so they can improve in time.

Also tentative [tdown] to Corlys and Ben Plumm — I'm not very familiar with these characters, but Corlys' entry to me makes his brilliance out to be an Informed Attribute or offscreen attribute up until the end, and he comes across to me as a bit too nice by Westerosi characters' standards (he comes across more as a flawed hero than a real MB). Ben Plumm has the "charm" and "Not too detestable" nailed down, but his failures and limited successes make him sound to me more like a Smug Snake than MB.

Edited by Derv0sB2 on Mar 15th 2022 at 8:19:58 AM

Derv0sB2 Since: Apr, 2020
#71729: Mar 15th 2022 at 8:31:57 PM

Also tentative [tup] to The Lion, and tentative [tdown] to Tulius (again, I'm unfamiliar with the the source, but Tulius seems too good to me and I feel there aren't clear enough displays of his own intelligence and charm to qualify).

Derv0sB2 Since: Apr, 2020
#71730: Mar 15th 2022 at 8:43:29 PM

Tentative [tdown] to the above quote. I honestly feel apologetic for giving so many [tdown]'s here, but the quote doesn't sound to me like MB at all.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#71731: Mar 15th 2022 at 8:45:20 PM

You know you can edit your posts, right?

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#71732: Mar 15th 2022 at 9:24:22 PM

Sure to the Wolf, and I dig the quote, Bull!

Alrighty, between Lighty and I we're fully planning to get a page out of First Law before it's all over with, but for now lemme do Crummock... he'll go on YMMV.The First Law at the bottom of the tree. Then underneath Threetrees and above Shenkt on the main Lit page. He's technically mentioned in a lot of the books but he only makes a physical appearance thus far in Last Argument of Kings, so there ya go for listing.

Oh, and also, for...some reason, my copy-pasting for Threetrees' entry a couple weeks back left off like the last 2 words, making it just end in the middle of a sentence. [lol] I've fixed it on the YMMV and it'll just need to be swapped out on the Sandbox when Crummock goes.

  • The First Law:
    • (Bethod)
    • Rudd Threetrees is the de facto leader of Logen Ninefingers' Northmen gang after the latter's apparent demise, and uses his mind for clever strategies to lead the group against Bethod and the Shanka. A brutal warrior who nonetheless has standards, Threetrees takes time to hunt down the butchers of an entire family and kill them all, even down to the youngest, innocent soldier. After a failed attempt at a truce with Bethod, Threetrees resolves to ally with enemy Union forces and wipe out Bethod once and for all, advising Union commanders on the best ways to strike at Bethod and his forces. Even though killed in battle, Threetrees goes down fighting the monstrous Fenris the Feared with bravery in a harsh duel, and it is Threetrees' tactics and efforts that save the Union from further losses after his demise.
    • Last Argument of Kings: Crummock-i-Phail is the boisterous, affable chief of the hillmen of the High Places, who hides a devious mind behind his exterior of silly insanity. Striding onto the scene when Logen Ninefingers and the Union are at an impasse with the forces of Bethod, Crummock offers an alliance and concocts a clever strategy to lure Bethod into a trap that claims a vast swathe of his forces. Further convincing Logen to challenge Bethod to a duel while sending Logen's allies to kill Bethod's powerful witch ally, Crummock takes advantage of Logen killing Bethod by quickly naming Logen the new king of the North. Crummock then reveals that right from the start, his goal was to displace Bethod with someone like Logen so that the North would no longer be united nor able to pose a threat to the High Places, Crummock calmly parting ways with Logen while nonetheless threatening to end him if he dares challenge the Hillmen.

  • Uncharted (2022):
    • Victory "Sully" Sullivan is a fortune hunter who seeks the lost treasure of the Magellan expedition, and partners with Nathan Drake to become an unstoppable duo. Introduced outdoing Nate in professional pickpocketing to lure him to a meet-up, Sully goads Nate into an alliance by preying on Nate's desire to find his long-lost brother Sam. Working with Nate to solve a variety of puzzles and consistently outwit Santiago Moncada, Sully is revealed to have been stringing Nate along in finding Sam, Sully truthfully believing the man to be dead and having just used his memory to manipulate Nate. Nonetheless, Sully proves to be a true friend to Nate, as he sacrifices the Magellan treasure to save his life, and together, the two promise to find their fortune in further adventures.
    • Jo Braddock is the tough-as-nails right-hand woman of Santiago Moncada, and quickly proves herself to be the actual threat betweenst them. Braddock has done all of Santiago's dirty work in finding clues to the Magellan treasure over the years, personally beating Sully in a past encounter and apparently murdering Sam Drake. Using her loyal mercenary outfit to further Santiago's goals, Braddock winds up betraying and murdering Santiago when he outlives his usefulness, Braddock having been using him as a figurehead the whole time. Masterminding a clever, if ridiculous, plot to reap the greatest rewards once she finds the Magellan treasure, Braddock airlifts the Magellan ships and duels Nate and Sully, nearly outwitting and the men to secure her fame and fortune.

Edited by Ravok on Mar 15th 2022 at 9:48:33 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#71733: Mar 15th 2022 at 9:44:47 PM

[up][up][up] Might I ask why. It gets the manipulative and bastard parts of the tropes down, at lest in my opinion. I am not trying to be rude, I am just curious how it fails. That way I can be aware next time.

Edited by Bullman on Mar 15th 2022 at 11:55:24 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#71735: Mar 15th 2022 at 10:05:49 PM

Agreed. Good quote.

@Ravok Looking at the Uncharted duo, it's still a little weird when both a hero and villain from the same movie/show count for this. Haha.

Derv0sB2 Since: Apr, 2020
#71736: Mar 15th 2022 at 10:08:04 PM

[up][up][up] My apologies, I misread the quote the first time, that's on me. After having looked up the character's MB entry, I have to ask, as someone unfamiliar with Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, how successful was Madam Satan in her bid to corrupt the title character?

EDIT: I have to apologize for that again, and conclude my brain really isn't in the game today — I just rechecked the MB entry and see Madam Satan's success there. Therefore, I'll change my original opinion on the quote to a [tup].

Edited by Derv0sB2 on Mar 15th 2022 at 10:12:41 AM

Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#71737: Mar 15th 2022 at 10:18:59 PM

  • Manhunt: James Earl Cash himself committed an unknown crime that landed him on death row. A callous, nearly emotionless killing machine, Cash is "rescued" from execution by Starkweather and forced to become the new "star" of his latest snuff film, violently but efficiently killing his way through waves of murderous gangs with both brute strength and cunning stealth. Enraged upon seeing his family murdered after he'd just rescued them and then being double-crossed by Starkweather, Cash swears revenge upon the depraved director, protecting a journalist from corrupt cops so she can release dirt on Starkweather in case he doesn't survive the night. Infiltrating Starkweather's mansion, Cash stealthily butchers the director's heavily armed mercenaries and lures the deranged, chainsaw-wielding cannibal Piggsy to his death before personally bringing Starkweather's life and his snuff ring to a deservedly gruesome end, ultimately getting away scot-free and undetected, and starting a construction business.
  • Road of the Dead: Refusing to die in the city as it's being overrun by zombies, John Creasman sets out on the highway, modifying his car into a mobile fortress to escape the carnage of the city, all while mowing down as many zombies and soldiers as he can. With the military catching onto his escape attempt, they deploy mines and spike strips and send carpet bombings and helicopters after him, all while he uses nothing but his own wits to evade them and damage them. In the end, with less than a minute to spare as the bomb is dropped, Creasman escapes the city through the tunnel as the city behind him burns in nuclear fire.

Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 15th 2022 at 11:24:03 AM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#71738: Mar 15th 2022 at 10:32:13 PM

I am popping in to say I have finished Stranger of Paradise: Final Fantasy Origin and that, as a lifelong FF Fan, it made me very happy. Oh and if you're wondering I got to play it early because I pre-ordered it.

I am also still on my break from the threads because I have yet to finish either Elden Ring or Horizon Forbidden West. God Elden Ring is longer than I expected.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#71740: Mar 16th 2022 at 12:33:45 AM
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#71741: Mar 16th 2022 at 12:34:31 AM

Yes to the Lilith quote. Abstain on the Fables leaning yes on the Wolf.

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#71742: Mar 16th 2022 at 12:37:21 AM

Quote's good. Still not a fan of the wolf, but if it goes up, it goes up.

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#71743: Mar 16th 2022 at 6:34:06 AM

[tup] Bull's quote

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#71745: Mar 16th 2022 at 7:20:09 AM

[tup]Quote.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#71747: Mar 16th 2022 at 8:52:26 AM

As I'm getting back into things lemme knock out the quickest and simplest of the Game of Thrones MBs I've planned.

Who is Salladhor Saan? What has he done?

A roguishly charming pirate from the Summer Islands, Salladhor is a thief who proudly only fucks women consensually, audaciously aware of his seductive nature. A former friend of the criminal-made-knight Ser Davos, Salladhor is roped into supplying ships for Stannis Baratheon during the War of the Five Kings. Promised riches and fantasizing about the opportunity to sleep with the beautiful Cerseri, he agrees to help, though Davos winds up losing the Battle of Blackwater to Tyrion's wildfire gambit.

Rescuing Davos after the fleet is wiped out, Salladhor agrees to deliver him to Stannis but declines to continue the battle, feeling they've lost and intends to return to his piracy. Himself returning to Braavos, he maintains himself successfully, last seen being entertained by two prostitutes as Davos comes to visit him, offering him gold to sail with him to Castle Black.

Salladhor accepts the money and... is never seen again. At least someone gets a happy "ending"!

Actions and personality?

He's a fun pirate with decades of pillaging behind him and pointedly despises the more vile points of a criminal lifestyle, even as a cutthroat thief. Salladhor has a very realistic view of the War and knows to get in/get out based on what he sees.

Mitigating factors?

Sadly minor character but he's more than memorable with his lines and though he's only got a handful of scenes, always manages to get his grips on the gold he seeks, never really losing in his tenure.

Verdict?

Smaller but easy enough keep.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#71748: Mar 16th 2022 at 8:59:22 AM

[tup]Saan

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#71749: Mar 16th 2022 at 9:00:03 AM

Aye to Salladhor Saan.

Damn, Game of Thrones is so fucked you had to emphasize on the guy having the decency to only have consensual sex as if it stands out? 💀

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities

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