During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
venompool, zimos, the peacemaker duo, the Gotham guy, and the asofai duo.
Weiss schnee, blue and red, and tulius.
Here's these. Xamphur goes at the very bottom below Iorwerth in the Old School section and Charos goes just after Vanescula.
- RuneScape
- Xamphur is an ancient lich and most devoted follower of the legendary Xeric, who nearly conquered the kingdom of Great Kourend a millennia ago. Following his master's defeat and exile, Xamphur was imprisoned by Xeric's lizardmen slaves but grew to control and dominate them over centuries of coercion. Needing the power of the dreaded Dark Altar to restore his master, he gives the last king of Kourend a potion that drives him insane and convinces his advisors to poison him and later tricks them into causing the king's daughter to fall into a coma when she discovers the plot. Blackmailing the new Royal Council into his service, he uses them to access the Dark Altar and draw power from it. Xamphur later creates a false treasure hunt to lure a relic seeker to become possessed by Xeric's spirit and finally reunite with his master and begin their next plot to claim ever greater power.
- Charos is an infamous sorcerer that learned guile and charm to survive growing up in the slums of Vampyre ruled Meiyerditch. Living as an informant and interrogator in the royal court of Lord Drakan, Charos was rewarded with magical training that allowed him to create his iconic Ring of Charos to charm anyone and a magical brooch to take on any form. Forced to flee after an innocent prank on Drakan, he was hunted and allowed many to die in his place before finally faking his death with a simulacrum of himself. Living several lives for fun, he ultimately settled on the royal librarian Reldo and secretly provided aid to the World Guardian countless times. Later sought out by Kerapac for his own schemes, Charos gives the adventurer one last grand riddle before revealing his identity and later proves invaluable as he masterminds the plot to stop Kerapac's world ending scheme.
Victor.
Would anyone mind it I took Stranger of Paradise: Final Fantasy Origin? Garland/Chaos is one of my favorite FF villains so a game dedicated to him sounds great.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I was told in the past (after my previous failure with someone from Fate Zero) that I shouldn't see a failed EP as an embarrassment, but I can't help but to be ashamed of myself here. I don't know what to do now. Am I really taking this too seriously if this is how I feel? Normally I'd try to look for someone else immediately, but I can't tell if that would actually make things better. Maybe I'm just being melodramatic, but as someone who's had so many successes, I feel lame. I want to take a break, but I also don't want to end things on a sour note. Maybe I just got too excited at the thought of doing another EP and lost sight of what makes a candidate worthy. Maybe I blurred the line too much with some of my successes, and now I'm taking this too seriously.
Edited by 227someguy on Mar 15th 2022 at 9:54:02 AM
Everyone look at my sandboxIt appears that the Lion is trending towards a no, so I will not proceed with that draft. I will also not re-visit the Weasel from "The Weasel and the Mice", not only because the most detailed version is barely a paragraph long, but also because it is practically the same story as "The Cat and the Mice", which Mirai Yuji EP'ed
With that, my re-visiting of my Aesops Fables EP's is complete. Only the foxes from "The Fox and the Crow" and "The Deer without a Heart" keep. Enkoom and Mirai - the floor is yours now
As for me, I'm looking for Among Us fanfics which I can get a candidate from. It's harder than I thought it would be...
Edited by magnumtropus on Mar 15th 2022 at 3:04:06 PM
@magnumtropus Alright then. Btw, I came across some Spanish-written Winx Club/Among Us crossover where there might be a candidate. I had started writing an EP but if you want, I can give her to you.
That being said, I'll start with my most controversial fable candidates and end with my least controversial. That being said, I won't re-do The Ass, The Fox and the Lion, as it's combination of short length with how insufficiently brilliant the Lion's move is (making him come closer to Opportunistic Bastard).
Hence my first candidate:
What's the work?
Who's the Wolf? What has he done?
A Wolf hung around a flock of sheep under the watchful eyes of a Shepherd, but hadn't harmed them so far.
However, the Shepherd's distrust diminished as time goes on, the Wolf repeatedly coming back yet not harming the sheeps, to the point he eventually came to see the Wolf as a friend.
Needing to go to the city, the Shepherd left the flock under the Wolf's care.
The Wolf's plan paid off as a result : taking advantage of the opportunity, he ate the entire flock, and got away with it.
Any mitigating factors?
Nope, here we have a wolf who simply decides to play the Long Game, earning the Shepherd's trust and slaughtering the flock as soon as he's alone with them and gets away with it. Planning, magnificence, bastardry without too much of it, you get it.
I've seen some argue that the Wolf doesn't have enough personality. I have to disagree : the whole aesop of the story is basically Wolf in Sheep's Clothing and how the wolf essentially pretends to be harmless for the shepherd to ultimately drop his guard.
Verdict ?
Up to you guys.
Preemptive write-up
- Aesop's Fables: "The Wolf and the Shepherd
" : The Wolf, wanting to eat a flock of sheep guarded by a Shepherd, came up with a long-term plan. Repeatedly hanging around the flock without harming them under the watchful eyes of the Shepherd, he earned the latter's trust, who eventually came to see the Wolf as a friend. When the Shepherd went to the city, he left the flock in the Wolf's care, leading to the latter jumping on the opportunity, eating and slaughtering the whole flock and getting away with it.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Mar 15th 2022 at 5:02:54 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)> Winx Club/Among Us crossover
In a seriousness though I've binged watched through every single Super Sentai and still haven't found a good quote for MagnificentBastard.Super Sentai. A bit of help here?
Eh, good enough.Brynjolf writeup (big thanks to Georgie for this)
- Brynjolf, a successful thief who became one of the higher ups of the Thieves' Guild, introduces the protagonist to the questline. Seeing the protagonist's potential even if they fail his test, Brynjolf recruits them in the Guild, advises them and task them to commit various missions and thefts , tasking them to avoid killing out of pragmatism, eventually discovering the equally brilliant Karliah's scheme and that Mercer framed her. Brynjolf tasks the player to break into Mercer's house to find out his plan, stealing the two "Eyes Of The Falmer" to run off with them and become rich. Brynjolf becomes a Nightingale along with the player and aids them with infiltrating the dwarven ruins to catch Mercer. After Mercer's death and with the Guild having regained its previous glory, Brynjolf promotes the player to Guildmaster, the latter having successfully proven his worth under his wing. Balancing his deeds with a soft spot for children, Brynjolf proves to be both an excellent mentor and thief.
The Wolf.
Was gonna wait until I finish the playthoughs and get more EP's up, but to get him out of the way, here's Zimos' entry.
- Saints Row: The Third: Zimos is Steelport's oldest and most influential pimp. An affable, old school gangster, Zimos was previously usurped by the Morningstar and made a gimp slave at their brothel. Escaping this, Zimos would join the Saints and help re-establish their criminal empire through drug trafficking and prostitution. Genuinely caring for the sex workers under the Saints, Zimos makes sure they are treated right, getting indigent over their mistreatment, allowing them to unionize, and having a abusive client killed. To bring down the Syndicate sex trafficking operations, Zimos would ostensibly offers the Boss off as a sex slave to infiltrate an auction, before rescuing their captives, as well as personally protecting those rescued from one of the Syndicate's ship.
Btw Beast since I'm doing otherworld. I'm curious would Elena, Jeremy and Karl keep in Bitten ?
It does adapt most of their best early moments.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
