During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Reaper
- The Suffering: Ties That Bind: Blackmore is a dreaded Baltimore crime lord who seeks to gain control of the city. In truth an alter ego of Torque’s who groomed him to become a criminal since childhood, Blackmore took advantage of Torque’s blackouts to build his empire through charisma and influence, while punishing those who stand in his way. With Torque wanting out of his gang, Blackmore arranged for his family to die, with Torque sentenced to Carnate as punishment. Feeling tired of sharing Torque’s body, upon Torque’s return to Baltimore, Blackmore seizes the opportunity to lead Torque down the path of evil, hoping to corrupt his mind to the point where he can take total control. Allying with the Foundation just so he can obtain their resources and expand his power, Blackmore betrays the Foundation’s leader Jordan and takes control of the organization himself. Throughout multiple endings and choices, Blackmore remains an affably charismatic opponent, the smartest of which Torque has ever fought.
- More Fun Comics Issue #106: The Specialist is the “Consultant in Crime” whom every villain goes to in order to ensure a perfect caper. Hired by Pug to steal a jewel from a man’s apartment, the Specialist fakes a fire inside to draw the tenants out, then has those with children stand aside as he casually robs the target, knowing that they will protect their most prized possessions. Escaping from Green Arrow’s grasp using the smoking apartment, the Specialist later poses as a member of the health board who convinces a ringmaster that his rhino suffers from the fictional Tyrikosis disease, just so that he can have him sold to another circus for more money.
Gakuhano Asano has an example written up. Was that not added by us? It seems to fit how an example should be written.
Oh alright, that explains my confusion with that statement.
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 26th 2022 at 12:59:11 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midChang /Cheng (something) the Big Bad?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Now here's the next I promised.
What's the work?
The Disastrous Life of Saiki K. is a hilarious gag-filled 4koma with an equally funny anime adaptation. The title character has godlike psychic powers... and just wants to be left alone! As hijinks force him to deal with friends and family Kusuo will never admit he likes, later into the series we meet his brilliant older brother. Of course, being the smartest person on earth still comes second to, well, a sibling who has godlike psychic powers and that drives a bit of a wedge.
Who is Kusuke? What has he done?
An absolute genius who proved himself a prodigy at the age of two, a teenaged Kusuke even invents a device to control Kusuo's powers and keep them from running amok and potentially destroying the world. Heading off to England at 14 to study for his doctorate, Kusuo and his parents are forced to visit when Kusuo's control device is broken.
Using the opportunity to challenge Kusuo to a game of tag, Kusuke delights in having his brother and friends chased by crowds and tormented... nearly catching his brother by taking over London's surveillance systems but gets beaten... much to his masochistic delight! After a bout of excited breathing Kusuke chills out, he and Kusuo continue to annoy each other but stay at a distance.
During a Christmas special, he winds up coming to blows with Teruhashi, a narcissistic and inhumanly beautiful girl when she indicates her and his brother Kusuo would be suited for each other. After helping Kusuo cover for a lie he'd told to Teruhashi earlier, Kusuke bluntly tells her she's beneath someone of his brother's stature... this winds up backfiring when a crowd of adoring men set upon Kusuke to tear him apart for making their "goddess" cry. Escaping by helicopter, Kusuke ponders studying her influence as another test subject.
Later, Kusuke attempts to resurrect his little bro in a timeline in which Kusuo is killed (casually stating he'll throw his time machine out with the burnables when Kusuke comes back alive from an alternate reality despite fights for the thing literally causing World War III). Later he challenges Kusuo to collecting cards (after blowing up the house with a bomb, forcing Kusuo to turn back time) lest he reveal his brother's powers to the world, only for the whole thing to be an elaborate birthday surprise and chance to test Kusuo's power's limits.
Actions and personality?
He's a hilarious parody of a sociopathic genius and he's funny, snarky and of course unquestionably smart. He'll happily let nuclear fallout occur or threaten to bomb Tokyo to grab Kusuo's attention but he does love his family, inventing a robot cat for his allergic mother and works tirelessly to bring back his dead brother, even if they fight all the time.
Mitigating factors?
Ultimately not seeing it: his masochism thing is way too funny to make him too squicky for this.
Verdict?
Amused yes.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 26th 2022 at 1:36:11 PM
to Kusuke and Past-Koro Sensei
Yes I did EP Asano in the past. How dare thow forget such event!
to Jukka
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 26th 2022 at 2:27:49 PM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffYes to Kusuke.
My next Redwall, before writeups? A rare example of a squirrel.
Jukka the Sling.
Who is Jukka?
Lord Brocktree is one of the best regarded entries in series, concerning Brocktree, a mighty Badger who seeks the great mountain Salamandastron that his aged father Stonepaw rules, with the Long Patrol of hare warriors...unfortunately, the mountain is under siege by the monstrous wildcat Ungatt Trunn who seeks to conquer it. To save it, Brock must rally an army, and one of those is Jukka the Sling.
Jukka is the leader of a tribe of wild squirrels, talented with her sling as to have it part of her name. Introduced when the aged hare Fleetscut is fleeing the mountain to find allies on Lord Stonepaw's order, Jukka lures Trunn's soldiers pursuing him into a trap and has them cut down by her missiles. Now, Jukka is basically the leader of a group of bandits and they lure in victims to kill and rob. Usually vermin, but she's not exactly averse to others...Fleetscut is spared since he has nothing of value and Jukka demonstrates a genuine fondness to him. Fleetscut begs her to go save his own, but Jukka, judging the likelihood of death against the hordes, opts to abandon them to their death.
Fleetscut later calls her a coward and Jukka almost kills him for the insult, but then decides to show she's no coward, she'll help Fleetscut build up allies and liberate Salamandastron. The group later ally with Brocktree, and Jukka shows herself as an excellent battle commander during the siege against the Blue Hordes of Trunn. To gain intel, Jukka actually infiltrates the mountain herself, shaking her tail to pass for a rat. This goes great and hse gets valuable intel...until fate intervenes and Trunn himself literally walks into her. Jukka accidentally slips into her natural archaic speech and Trunn realize sshe's an imposter. Jukka flees to get her intel to the heroes...and with Fleetscut makes a final stand to hold Trunn's forces off...by the time the heroes arrive, Jukka and Fleetscut have both fallen, Fleetscut havig a few final moments while Jukka is already dead...the two holding hands tight as comrades.
Mitigating issues?
Nah, Jukka's a great planner and commander and is a crack shot with her sling. She's bold, an excellent character, and incredible sharp and intelligent. Usually the issue we run into with goodbeasts is...the bastard component. When they're bad, they're usually really nasty and charmless. The best planners are usually not immoral at all.
Jukka is a rare exception to straddle the line. Her intellegience is balanced with a ruthlessness that's very uncommon. She makes a living as a bandit who's not picky about who she kills or robs and she abandons Fleetscut's people when she judges the danger too grave. When Fleetscut insults her, Jukka literally almost murders him on the spot for offense, but decides to help liberate Salamandastron to prove him wrong.
And she has one of the most touching heroic sacrifices in the series to boot.
Conclusion?
Keep Jukka.

He's the only one I double checked on but I'm inclined to agree from memory... lots of great characters but anyone who could be considered like Karma doesn't really line up right for the magnificence and bastardry.