During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
- The Worlds Finest Assassin anime: Cian Tuatha Dé, Lugh’s loving father, is the head of the House of Tuatha Dé, and an incredible assassin in his own right who made Lugh the skilled killer he is today. Disguising his hits by posing as the Alvan Kingdom’s medical expert, Cian uses a wide variety of tactics, disguises, and clever traps to kill his targets while not getting caught, all while believing that murder is necessary to protect his kingdom. Raising Lugh to be his heir, Cian has him kill death row inmates so that he won’t grow hesitant over killing people, while letting him know that he will be raised not as a weapon, but as a person, who must possess human values to be a better killer. Cian’s even able to get the experienced Lugh to the position of aristocrat by having him injure the supposed runner-up as a test of strength. Getting Lugh to pose as a successful merchant to get closer to his targets and privately build a team of assassins, Cian ultimately does what he can to give Lugh the life he thinks he deserves, while doing what he must to assist him in his plan to defeat the Hero.
Maybe and I'll probably watch the episode before I vote myself. To be quite clear at a glance she looks okay but I'm going to make it quite clear I'd A) like this to be done with an open mind that if it's found the tone doesn't match she'll be downvoted without complaints people don't think she counts and B) we know not to open the floodgate for vulgar comedy candidates as we've had problems in the past when one's allowed up that suddenly characters who die shitting their pants or try to smuggle diamonds out of the Whitehouse up their ass are coming through with the EPs citing "We've had a candidate from a work like this up, we can spam post these kinds of things."
@Username; you PM’d me about Pouncy and I saw the episode that she was in. I’m all open for an EP on her as I think that she may actually have a shot at this
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 19th 2022 at 3:12:45 PM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffOkay, so before I'm swallowed back up by the morass that is daily life, I wanna put a guy on the table I've been flip-flopping on for fucking years...
What's the setting?
John Carpenter's The Thing is a seminal piece of Body Horror sci-fi cinema, with special effects helmed by the renowned Rob Bottin. Adapting Who Goes There? from John W. Campbell Jr. (and subsequently remaking the first adaptation of that novel, 1951's The Thing from Another World, which was a much hokier take on the same concept) The Thing takes place at an Antarctic base in the middle of winter, as isolated a setting as you can get without it being either in space or underwater. A research team investigates a strange incident that left the personnel of the base dead. The only survivor appears to be a harmless little doggy and some crazy Norwegian they have to shoot dead...
...well, turns out the little doggy is a shapeshifting alien horror who can assimilate anyone and perfectly replicate their mannerisms. And it wants to spread to the rest of the Earth.
I'd love to put up the Thing itself as an MB. Truly, I would. But instead, I wanna talk about our film's main protagonist.
What has R.J. MacReady done?
The research team's shaggy, alcoholic helicopter pilot. A Vietnam war vet. Played to irascible perfection by Kurt Russell, MacReady shows off the kind of man he is when he loses a match to a (cheating) robot chess program; he dumps his beer down the vent of its computer, frying it. He's the kind of man who would sooner burn the entire field than face loss...and as it turns out, this kind of ruthless pragmatism makes him the single best person to go up against the Thing.
MacReady is the one who makes the disturbing discovery of the alien spacecraft frozen beneath the research base, but by that time, the Thing has already begun assimilating the research team's dogs, seeking to spread among the team until it takes all them all over. After MacReady subdues Blair (the team's senior biologist, who destroys communication with the outside world in a paranoid fit) and Garry, the team's ostensible leader, resigns, MacReady takes the reins in trying to stop the Thing.
Things understandably begin quite tense; MacReady, lamenting "nobody trusts anybody," isolates members of his team and begins analyzing the Thing's contaminated blood for a way to stop it. When they throw him out in a fit of paranoia, MacReady wrests command of the situation back into his hands by revealing he's strapped the base end-to-end with dynamite and he's happy to blow everyone to Hell if it means stopping the Thing. MacReady shoots and kills the base's dog handler, Clark when he attempts to sneak up behind MacReady.
MacReady finally manages to both reestablish himself as leader and prove he's not infected by putting together the Thing's nature and devising the "blood test," exposing his backup pilot Palmer as a Thing in disguise but confirming the humanity of everyone else except Blair. Blair's infected and begins rampaging, and MacReady once again realizes the Thing's game; it intends to freeze and go into dormancy, so that when summer hits, it'll be dethawed and loosed on an unsuspecting humanity. Acknowledging there's no way he'll survive, MacReady rallies the rest of the team into doing what he does best; blowing up the entire battlefield, themselves and the Thing included.
In probably his most badass moment, MacReady takes on a fully-mutated Blair-Thing and kills the shit out of it with some dynamite, blowing up most the entire Antarctic research base is annihilated in the ensuing explosions. When all is said and done, MacReady is still alive at the end, along with the only other survivor Childs, who maaaay be infected himself. Regardless, the Thing's plans for dormancy have been thwarted, and MacReady ends the film facing his doom with a bottle of Scotch and a cool, stoic expression on his face.
Is he magnificent?
So there's some bumps here, but let me put it plainly; MacReady is bar none the most levelheaded, intelligent, and capable character in the cast. MacReady deduces the Thing's nature and its intentions, directly exposes imposter-Things, and improvises spur-on-the-moment plans in order to trap and hopefully kill the Thing. It's ambiguous if he's succeeded all the way by the end, but there's no indication even if the Thing did survive the explosions that it's gonna be able to continue on to the rest of Earth after MacReady screwed over its dormancy plan.
Summarize it: MacReady is a random helicopter pilot who goes toe-to-toe with an Eldritch Abomination and, at worst, ends up in a draw. Is he on edge the whole time? Obviously. Is he a complete jackass at times? Yes, but so's everyone else. Does he make mistakes, even some pretty huge ones? Yeah, but part of why MacReady stays the leader and why he's the last one standing by the end (again, possibly barring Childs) is because he's able to rebound from those mistakes, come up with new plans and take control of the situation again.
When his main opponent is an unknowable eldritch horror who thrives on Paranoia Fuel and turning people against each other? I think MacReady's levelheadedness fully vaults into genuine magnificence. It's not just that MacReady is performing well "for the situation"; he's a genuine badass who takes control of the situation early on and never lets it go, at least not without a damn good fight.
I've also seen it floated around maybe MacReady himself is a Thing by the end, but I think that's a little too ambiguous to qualify against him. MacReady is the only character whose POV we more-or-less follow for most of the film, past the point he slays the Blair-Thing. And for what it's worth, the 2002 video game (which I think is supposed to be canon in an EU sense) reveals he's not only still human, he inexplicably survived being stranded in the middle of the Antarctic, too! How? He's fucking R.J. MacReady, that's how.
Is he a bastard?
Again, a few bumps given you can very well argue all of MacReady's nastier actions are under the duress of paranoia and desperation, but hey, you kinda have to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist to fight an alien horror. I do think MacReady objectively clears this line; he demonstrates he's willing to blow up the entire camp with all the other people in it if it means getting one up on the alien, and he does legit kill Clark—in self-defense, mind, but Clark had just as much reason to thing MacReady was a Thing as it was vice-versa. When Clark is proven to be human after all, the other characters outright call him a murderer, which MacReady doesn't deny.
It's been noted a few times MacReady treats defeating the Thing and saving humanity as less out of altruism and more because of how he's characterized in his opening scene; MacReady does not suffer loss, not even to an alien abomination. I think that's pretty accurate, and even if you disagree, MacReady is goddamned ruthless at times when it comes to outwitting the Thing.
Conclusion?
Honestly, I think he keeps, but I want to see some discussion here given how thickly rooted the film is in ambiguity (which was my biggest stumbling block for the longest time).The Thing isn't just renowned for its Body Horror; it's psychological as well, and part of that is because the back half of the thing is a steady mind game between MacReady and the alien. And honestly, I think he performs wonderfully.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 19th 2022 at 1:25:03 PM
I’ll give him this, he might keep in the film (I don’t hold killing the dog handler against him too much cause the other guy attacked first, but the dynamite might push him over), but wasn’t there a comic line that continued the story past the film and might be canon? I know that the comic confirms that both Childs and Mac were human at the end, but I don’t know if we wanna check those out first and see how he handles there (I think he ends up going out in a Heroic Sacrifice)
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 19th 2022 at 3:31:38 PM
@STAR: As far as I know, the EU, comics and all, are muddled (assuming the Dark Horse comics are canon, for instance, ignores the revelations about him in the 2002 game). All that aside, the EU stuff is vague enough that, beyond the 2011 film, I'm focusing primarily on the film—it's why I listed his appearance in the 2002 game as just a footnote.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 19th 2022 at 1:33:01 PM
to Mac Ready.
@43110: Here's my updated Molly write-up
- The Walking Dead: Season One: Molly is an ex-Crawford survivor who had an affair with a doctor to get insulin for her diabetic sister. After her death, Molly often uses the town's bells to distract walkers from her scavenging. When she first meets Lee's group, she leaves them to die before Clementine changed her mind. In Crawford, Molly gets Lee to shoot through a skylight to escape with a battery. A caring person beneath her cynism, Molly stands out as one of the most capable survivors in the series.
Think it's decent enough?
Edited by MiraiYuji on Feb 19th 2022 at 9:33:42 PM
Eager Yes to MacReady and obligatory great fucking thinking there!
I've read the comics, I think it's fine to ignore them tbh, they get...weird and while yes they confirm MacReady was human, I don't think we should really take them as "canon". Slight side note, I read them because I read the Thing itself gets more malevolence to it, so I read em to check it out for CM, it comes close and seems to tease the Thing is a sadist Hive Mind until the literal last story once more reverts it back to just being animal struggling for survival, so ah well!
Edited by Ravok on Feb 19th 2022 at 12:32:25 PM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
to MacReady
You know with that Pouncey dance mentioned, I remember it Pouncey and Meg dancing "Suggestively" with Pouncey using her legs to grab onto Meg butt and Meg referring to the dance as hot, while Peter witnesses it and calls the overall dance weird. I'm not saying that it might be too militating, but I thought that it's worth mentioning.
Here's a video clip of Meg and Pouncy's dance if you want to see it for yourselves
.
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 19th 2022 at 3:42:37 PM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffHaving watched that clip and understanding the plan, I'd be a no. It's a just another character in the show being used to shit on meg. The disease is known as toxoplasmosis, and it's explicitly mentioned in the episode that it comes from cat poop.
Still reading the thing EP, but I think I'll be an eager
, given what I remember from the film.
Edit: and indeed I am an eager
for Macready.
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 19th 2022 at 3:57:57 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

I am sorry to bring this up but is Family Guy really a lost cause? Even I kind of think it is but upon my rewatches there is maybe, MAYBE a character that might be worth a discussion but I think I would need to get another opinion from someone who has seen the episode.