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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#69401: Feb 14th 2022 at 11:50:30 AM

Yes to Killua.

By the way, for future reference, Ban-Evader Example Rewrites is where we make note of candidates which are due for relitigation on account of sockpuppetry, unless you guys want me to move it to a separate sandbox.

227someguy I hate spoilers Since: Apr, 2017
I hate spoilers
#69402: Feb 14th 2022 at 12:04:47 PM

This is my longest write-up yet, which is fitting since it's for my longest EP yet.

Killua Zoldyck is a shrewd, yet competent young boy, as well as the middle child of the Zoldyck family. Having been raised since birth to become a great assassin and future head of the household, Killua enters the Hunter Exam, where he meets his best friend Gon Freecs. His experiences with Gon, Kurapika, and Leorio mold Killua into someone who wishes to break free from his family's expectations while still retaining his ruthlessness. Said ruthlessness is displayed when he threatens to kill someone for forcing him and Gon to surrender a fight. Killua is intelligent enough anticipate how his opponents will try to attack him and is good at adapting to opposition. These skills are put to great use, especially when escorting his beloved younger sibling Alluka to heal Gon after a dangerous mission left him hospitalized. After the conclusion of the 13th Chairman Election, Killua chooses to live a peaceful life with Alluka, telling Gon to call him should he ever be needed.

I think we might need to change some of the Potholes for other entries to avoid redundancy. Also, I may have to take a break since this whole project mentally wore me out.

Everyone look at my sandbox
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#69403: Feb 14th 2022 at 12:07:03 PM

I genuinely don't think Bronn would go through with it, even if he's worse in the books that the show. In a moment of solidarity with Tyrion and Shae, he's outright disgusted when he hears what Tywin did to Tyrion's first wife and says he would have killed every man that took part.

We've had a couple of candidates who threatened rape with no intentions of going through with it. Mike Toreno from GTA is an example of that.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#69404: Feb 14th 2022 at 12:18:40 PM

My problem with that is the world of Westeros. Yes he did say that Tyrion, but most people would be angry and I was took his line to say he'd take revenge on Tywin, not that he'd kill everyone. The line is "Thirteen or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me." Because it would be a cruel thing to do to someone, but this doesn't stop him from being an amoral hypocrite. I don't see that as disgust with the rape per say, but with the fact that it was done to Tyrion. And also it's prudent to be on good terms with your employer even if you're upfront about not being loyal. Rape is a dime a dozen in Westeros, I just don't see it as an idle bluff. Hell sympathetic characters have done so (The Elder Brother raped women in the past and feels great remorse about it).

Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 14th 2022 at 3:22:36 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#69405: Feb 14th 2022 at 12:26:13 PM

Actually, due to the amount of traffic received by the Complete Monster & Magnificent Bastard threads, I am contemplating giving re-evaluation for BE entries their own sandbox at the following location: Sandbox.Ban Evader Candidate Relitigation.

If anyone has a reason to object, please explain your reasoning.

Personally, I feel that it would be easier to access such a sandbox without having to go to Ban-Evader Reversion. Technically, it would be a subpage of Ban-Evader Example Rewrites, Magnificent Bastard Sandboxes and Monster Sandboxes, but more specifically for our purposes. Alternately, we could add a link for Ban-Evader Example Rewrites to the CM To Do Lists and MB To Do Lists.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#69406: Feb 14th 2022 at 12:28:37 PM

Do we really need to. I dont like rushing to check these guys as it encourages these evaders to keep coming back

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#69408: Feb 14th 2022 at 1:02:02 PM

I'm a no. Do it on your own time if you want.

Even if Bronn would carve a baby like a capon, he never does so and his talk of it is just that. I see no reason his threat of rape is any different, especially when it's filtered through an extremely unreliable source. As far as know, Bronn has never raped anyone, he never tries to and he makes one threat of someone he knows will crack like an egg before it.

Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 14th 2022 at 1:03:18 AM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#69409: Feb 14th 2022 at 1:07:38 PM

[up]You can just ignore that PM I sent on the subject then.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#69410: Feb 14th 2022 at 1:13:13 PM

Another thing I'd say? Bronn had a lot of screentime. If he was a rapist, he had plenty of opportunities to show or say it before. All indications are he treats Lollys pretty well, all things considered and he's never shown being creepy or such with women.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#69411: Feb 14th 2022 at 1:15:56 PM

It was Falyse, her sister. Anyways I said my piece. I'll await the EP.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#69412: Feb 14th 2022 at 1:17:12 PM

I know. Falyse just tried to have him killed. Lollys is, meanwhile, a traumatized abuse victim and Bronn not only treats her well (when he does not have to), he gives her son the name Tyrion knowing what a scandal it'll be.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#69413: Feb 14th 2022 at 1:21:34 PM

Yes I know that. I feel like we're going in circles here. I don't see the threat as idle given his high degree of amorality and the world that Westeros is. You do given his Pet the Dog moments towards Lollys and other such small moments. We will be going in circles, all that's left now is an EP, which I do await.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#69414: Feb 14th 2022 at 1:30:52 PM

I'll write up Wyman and Mance tonight, then do Jaqen tomorrow. Bronn and Olenna will follow and we'll see if I can get it all done before the Friday lockout.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#69415: Feb 14th 2022 at 1:32:53 PM

This's inspriing me to go for one final CM post, but otherwise we'll see how it all shakes out in book 6

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#69416: Feb 14th 2022 at 1:37:47 PM

This is getting a bit ahead, but what are the thoughts of doing a combined book and show MB page like we did with for CM?

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#69417: Feb 14th 2022 at 1:53:21 PM

I figured that was the plan, I just forgot to post saying I intended to. I'll get a template going in a bit.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#69418: Feb 14th 2022 at 1:54:11 PM

By the way MagnificentBastard.Game Of Thrones is locked from creation so if we are going to use that as a redirect we need to head to the locked pages thread.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#69420: Feb 14th 2022 at 2:05:10 PM

Guy's it's not the first time we've dealt with this scenario. You just make a sandbox and the mods will use that to recreate the page. Patience, I'll get to it.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#69421: Feb 14th 2022 at 2:20:57 PM

Just so we are clear:

  • The sandbox/section of the sandbox is meant to document candidates which await re-litigation on account of being effortposted by ban-evaders.
  • I am suggesting a 1 month waiting period minimum from the time that the work is added to the list.
  • I am also suggesting that relitigations potentially need to be reserved in advance, and called in the thread.

This goes for both CM and MB, assuming I can convince both threads.

Does anyone have anything further to add?

I would like to thank ~Tropers/Klavice, ~Tropers/Miraculous and I think ~Tropers/Lightysnake (?) for weighing in so far.

Don't worry. I have thought through how the sandbox would operate.

[down] Fair enough.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Feb 14th 2022 at 5:38:57 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#69422: Feb 14th 2022 at 2:23:38 PM

I'm just gonna stick with the ASOIAF because having finally gotten into the work just yesterday, I know, I know, I'm actually interested in this one. Gonna watch the show first so I'm not quite as heartbroken by season 8 before I rip the books.

All that being said, here is our page. I suggest we all keep an eye on it because the name's gonna make it tempting for a well-meaning troper not familiar with the thread to put up Tywin, Littlefinger or someone else who looks to fit at a glance. I have no clue what the order for the book characters should be so Lore can correct that if he'd like.

[up] Honestly this just seems like giving attention to and over-complicating something simple: we cut their examples, we wait until they've pissed off and been forgotten until looking into it unless someone is interested in which case they can do it right away... we're not making someone wait a month to propose someone they wanted to just because some idiot who got kicked from the site came back to drop an EP before getting caught.

Edited by 43110 on Feb 14th 2022 at 10:25:54 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#69423: Feb 14th 2022 at 2:24:40 PM

Why am I being PM'd about this 9? I don't really care.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#69424: Feb 14th 2022 at 2:27:05 PM

Putting them up by when they are first truly relevant might be best. Most of the characters have cameos early on since books aren't restricted like shows are with loads of characters.

For the first three, I'm thinking Mance then Bloodraven then Wyman, but the ordering is very subjective right now.

Also, I think it's funny that book Jamie legit has a chance for this someday when Tyrion blew his shot in both mediums. It's truly staggering how different Jamie is in both versions.

Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 14th 2022 at 2:31:01 AM

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#69425: Feb 14th 2022 at 2:37:13 PM

Well as long as he doesn't rape his sister in the books...

I'll leave order totally in your hands too.

Edited by 43110 on Feb 14th 2022 at 10:39:51 AM


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