During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
to Mcelroy, Quinsetta and the Girl Genius duo
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 3rd 2022 at 9:45:20 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffDouble post by accident. My apologies
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 3rd 2022 at 9:45:35 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffHahaaaa, shit, I remember this special, eager yes to House of Villains!Jafar, what a damn flashback that is
Back in the days of VHS, lads! Sure to the Kidnapper and Kiriyama, too...and McElroy. Aaaaand Quintessa. AAAAAND the Girl Genius duo.
Guys, could we maybe work on exercising discretion on the effortpost quantity, please? There's been 5 effortposts in under 3 hours. I'm not saying we need an official rule to limit them or anything but it's kind of overwhelming to pop on to so many effortposts in such a short timeframe, especially when—like me—you've got an effortpost in reserve that you literally keep having to delay because of the amount of proposals being made so as to not swipe discussion time away from someone's hard-worked-upon effortpost. I'd just like to request we put forth some courtesy when there's a certain amount of effortposts in the last hour or two so that we're not immediately taking attention and discussion away from proposals by posting another one, or two, or 4, within a very short timespan of each other.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 3rd 2022 at 7:15:31 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Yes to McElroy, Quintessa and the Girl Genius duo.
Also a quick note: in the past couple of weeks here and on CM I've seen ambiguous "Sure" votes coming up a few posts after an EP which could be on the candidate or something else as well as folks electing to put "Same votes as above troper" rather than listing out who they're voting on. A while back Lighty gave us the specification rule but I'm wondering if we should take that a step further and require candidates actually be named in the vote... I remember Lore getting worried when he went to the work of making a post and then everyone was spelling the candidate's name wrong likely copy-pasting what someone else had said and I can empathize with his worry no one was actually reading his EP and instead guessing based on how others voted.
Also yes, what Ravok said... let's chill for a bit.
I mean... if you've been holding back I kinda wanna say just post it.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 3rd 2022 at 3:06:40 PM
Jafar, Kidnapper, Kazuo, Lopez, Boomerang, Mc Elroy, Quintessa, & the Girl Genius guys.
Quintessa and Girl Genius duo.
Any answer to my Jafar Question
?
I know that House of Mouse indeed has a rather loose continuity and House of Villains was released moreso as a tie-in movie than a full-fledged heavy-continuity tale so like, I guess Jafar could have additions from the series tacked onto his entry, but his biggest outing was absolutely the movie so I think Scrags was perfectly fine focusing the effortpost on that
Alright, I've refreshed on this classic and have us a fair few candidates to discuss so let's kickstart things!
What's the work?
SPOOOOOOOOOOOOON!
The Tick is a 1994 animated series based on the comic book of the same name. Created by Ben Edlund, the premise of The Tick is a familiar one: a mighty superhero fights crime on a daily basis in a city overflowing with do-gooders and ne'er-do-wells alike. Unlike some of its contemporaries, however, The Tick goes the route of being absolutely, balls-to-the-walls insane in its parodic spoofing of superhero tropes and cliches, lovingly embracing the ridiculous nature of supervillains with petty motives while the boisterous Cloudcuckoolander that is the Tick uses his powers of super strength and Nigh-Invulnerable to save "the City" alongside his sidekick, moth-costumed Arthur.
Throughout the span of episodes, the Tick faced some truly memorable baddies. From fan-favorite the Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs At Midnight, to an army of cloned Santa Clauses, the Tick's rogue's gallery is a stacked one, so it's no surprise it brings us some magnificent menaces! Lemme kick us off with one of the more recurring villains of the show and—arguably—the Tick's Arch-Enemy for as much of one as he had. The dastardly, the devious, the diabolical...
Chairface Chippendale
Voiced by Tony Jay his-fockmuthering-self, Chairface Chippendale is an eloquent, well-dressed supervillain...with an actual, honest-to-God wooden chair for a head that drove him to villainy thanks to society shunning him for it. Amazing.
In his introductory episode, Chairface is established as one of the City's greatest and most respected villains in the criminal community, and as he hosts a birthday party for himself while sending out thugs to steal some powerful glass lenses, nearly every villain in the city, immensely revering Chairface's status, attends his party and brings him a vast array of gifts and words of affection. (Chairface: "Oh. Diamonds. How original.")
As the Tick, Arthur and the skilled American Maid infiltrate Chairface's party to snoop around, Chairface discovers them and binds them together with a rope that prevents Tick from snapping it lest he simultaneously crush his partners. Cheerfully noting "This must be the part where I reveal my sinister plot!", Chairface reveals what he has used some of his gifts and the stolen lenses for: he's had his Mad Scientist Chromedome create a powerful laser that will allow Chairface to perform:
Sending Tick and his friends to be lowered into a man-eating alligator pool, Chairface begins lasering his name into the moon...and though the Tick and co. stop the laser, American Maid personally duels Chairface, who holds his own with a sword before catching her by surprise with a gun hidden inside his wall. Luckily, our heroes direct the laser on Chairface and order him to surrender, to which Chairface...amusingly just mutters "Well ok." and is arrested, swearing that no prison can hold him. Unfortunately for all, Chairface actually succeeded in part of his plan before the heroes stopped him: for the rest of the series, "CHA" is inscribed on the moon.
In his next episode, having escaped prison, Chairface creates his own Villain Team-Up with fellow baddies El Seed and the Breadmaster, scheming to take advantage of Dinosaur Neil's involuntary ability to transform into a giant dinosaur. Knowing that Neil is going to be married soon, Chairface swaps out the man's anti-dino medication with his own brand, and uses Breadmaster and El Seed to disrupt the wedding through explosive cake and monstrous reeds, sending Neil's stress levels through the roof and causing him to transform into a monster and rampage through the City. Chairface then sends the Indigestible Man to be swallowed by Dinosaur Neil and plug a mind control device into his brain, granting Chairface full control of Neil's form and intending to use it as a new minion.
This plan is unfortunately foiled when the Tick and Arthur infiltrate Neil's cranium as well using a meat-covered submarine!
In his final major appearance, Chairface learns of a new body-swapping device being unveiled at a mad scientist convention. Determined to claim it for both himself and his various minions who "aren't happy in their current bodies", Chairface dispatches Chromedome to infiltrate the convention and obtain the device. Soon enough, Chromedome returns, device in-hand and having swapped bodies with the Tick. Chairface quickly swaps bodies with Chromedome, inhabiting the Tick's body and gleefully juggling his minions with his newfound power, easily warding off the arriving body-swapped heroes—like Tick inside a zebra body
Though intending to destroy the swapping device so the heroes can never reverse its effects—simultaneously dooming Chromedome to inhabit his own, chair-faced body forever as punishment for Chromedome calling Chairface a "freak" earlier—Chairface is distracted long enough by Chromedome trying to steal the device first for the heroes to reverse the effects and capture Chairface, this time, apparently, for good.
Is he magnificent?
The Tick is heavy on spoofing superhero and cartoon cliches, so no, its villains are no David Xanatos constantly pulling master manipulations, but holy crap, a Wicked Cultured Faux Affably Evil Diabolical Mastermind with a chair for a face voiced by Tony Jay? I cannot call Chairface anything but magnificent. He lets out a Big "NO!" more than once when beaten, he ends the show ultimately taken down seemingly for good, but he is a consistently hilarious, charming, collected baddie with ridiculous schemes who always comes close to winning, and even when bested in his initial episode, he still successfully carves "CHA" into the moon which is maintained as a Running Gag for most of the show!
Is he a bastard?
Most def, he's a criminal genius who tries to vandalize the moon, kill the heroes numerous times, turn Neil into a dino permanently, and betrays Chromedome to leave him trapped in Chairface's body after they've been allies most of the show.
Of course he's still a totally polite, punny baddie who is seriously nice to his allies that don't insult him, is respected by the villainy community to such a point that they throw him a massive birthday party, is still tied down by the constraints of being a spoofy 90s superhero cartoon.
Final Verdict?
I'd give a Yes to Chairface Chippendale!
Edited by Ravok on Feb 3rd 2022 at 11:11:19 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Alright thanks for clarifying that Rav. This series sounds utterly insane in a good way. Only seen some of the first live-action series, which I loved.
Anyway
Chairface Chippendale.
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 4th 2022 at 10:24:03 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midSnoke helped me write this as well:
- Transformers: The Last Knight: Quintessa, "the Prime of Life" and "the Great Deceiver", is the Creator of the Transformers. Growing sick of the civil war and planning to restore Cybertron, she hires the bounty hunter Lockdown to hunt down Optimus Prime. When this fails, she lures Optimus to her and gets him to lower his guard enough to brainwash him to her cause, sending him to attack humans and retrieve the staff of Merlin for her. Quintessa's plan is to harness its power to not only drain Earth of its resources and transfer them all to Cybertron, but she intends to restore a peaceful Cybertron and destroy the ancient evil Unicron in one masterstroke too. When this fails, Quintessa turns herself human and conscripts other humans in her quest to help bring Unicron down.
Version for the drafts and the Transformers page:
- The Last Knight: Quintessa, "the Prime of Life" and "the Great Deceiver", is the Creator of the Transformers. Growing sick of the civil war and planning to restore Cybertron, she hires the bounty hunter Lockdown to hunt down Optimus Prime. When this fails, she lures Optimus to her and gets him to lower his guard enough to brainwash him to her cause, sending him to attack humans and retrieve the staff of Merlin for her. Quintessa's plan is to harness its power to not only drain Earth of its resources and transfer them all to Cybertron, but she intends to restore a peaceful Cybertron and destroy the ancient evil Unicron in one masterstroke too. When this fails, Quintessa turns herself human and conscripts other humans in her quest to help bring Unicron down.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 3rd 2022 at 10:47:09 AM
Incidentally—and those on the CM thread know this—but Overarching Villain is no longer a thing
.
I hate it too.

Yes to Jafar the Kidnapper Kiriyama Lopez Boomerang Mcelroy and Quintessa
Now I got a duo that I ran into by accident from one of my favorite webcomics
What’s the Work?
Girl Genius is a Webcomic by Phil and Kaja Foglio set in a steampunk world where some people are born as “Sparks” which means they become mad scientists who create ridiculous devices. My two candidates are from a side story
so I don’t have to worry about the ridiculous Kudzu Plot of the main comic but the only relevant info needed is that there is an ancient and powerful family of Sparks known as the Heterodynes and this story is set in a university they own when two students Elmira and Theodessa perform a strange experiment.
Who is The Ht’Rok’Din and Professor Bosewichte and what do they do?
Bosewichte is a professor at the University and The Ht’Rok’Din is the first Heterodyne from over a thousand years ago who was summoned by the experiment to help Elmira with her history class (since she’s more of a visual learner). When summoned, The Ht’Rok’Din tries to figure out where he is from the students, apparently having beat up two of them before the third is able to explain where he is, at which point the Ht’Rok’Din has him show him tools and artifacts. When Elmira and Theodessa try to stop The Ht’Rok’Din, Bosewichte knocks them out and ties them up and runs of with a bunch of devices, saying to The Ht’Rok’Din that “his coming was foretold and the way prepared.” The students escape their bonds and realize that one of the devices that was taken is a Tuning Fork the Ht’Rok’Din used to teleport his armies behind enemy lines to win battles in the past. The students think that Bosewichte is planning to summon an army to take over the world and rush to stop him. Bosewichte attacks them but is distracted long enough for Theodessa to try and stop the machine The Ht’Rok’Din has built, but he throws her aside and declares that he is going to conquer, “Time itself” and…. Sends himself back to where he came from to have a son and create the powerful Heterodyne family. Bosewichte explains that the Lady Heterodyne (who owns the University) knew that the Ht’Rok’Din was going to be summoned and tasked Bosewichte with making sure he got back to his own time. Bosewichte also explains that yes, he is an evil scientist bent on conquering the world even if this wasn’t one of his schemes, and has the students lay bricks as punishment for messing with him.
Are they Magnificent?
Yes, both are amazingly hammy with Bosewichte having some good jokes. Their plan, while kind of odd, is still pretty smart, with Bosewichte pretending to be unaware of what Elmira has done, right until he ties them up and The Ht'Rok'Din figured out what he had to do in seconds. On top of that The Ht'Rok'Din is shown to be a clever inventor and strategist by the teleporting army story.
Are they Bastards?
Certainly, The Ht'Rok'Din is described as a brutal conqueror who fondly remembers the, "sweet screaming" from one of his conquests and attacked two students, I don't think he's too bad though since we nevr see those conquests and the story doesn't treat him as a horrifying monster. Bosewichte is less evil but he's a Card-Carrying Villain who gleefully admits that he wants to conquer the world and did try to kill the students.
Conclusion?
I think they count.