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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#68376: Feb 2nd 2022 at 2:09:36 PM

[tup] Derek

Any possible new CM's from the season?

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#68378: Feb 2nd 2022 at 2:15:19 PM

Uh. My country hasn't shown the last one yet (that's next week) and I missed the season premiere. But no one counts in the rest of the episodes

Edited by miraculous on Feb 2nd 2022 at 2:16:29 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#68379: Feb 2nd 2022 at 2:24:27 PM

[tup]Sakura and Kaz, Orca, Bethod, Derek.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Idisagree Since: Jun, 2011
#68381: Feb 2nd 2022 at 3:23:29 PM

Yes to Derek. I think a Magnificent Bastard shouldn't be afraid to get his/her hands dirty every now and then. Helps when the Asshole Victim is the primary target.

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#68383: Feb 2nd 2022 at 6:02:05 PM

[up][up] You'll find I feel most of our approved candidates do. This is not to say we don't have any candidates who are Non Action Guys, but it's often a bonus if a candidate is proactive.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#68384: Feb 2nd 2022 at 7:54:16 PM

I'm not 100% sure how to format this, so feel free to adjust this however you'd like 43:

  • (Pre-Crisis folder) Green Arrow Appearances : Professor Merlin, the "Dean of Deviltry", is the first of Green Arrow's villains to ever escape the legendary archer. As the lead professor of the "Crime College", Merlin runs a tight carjacking operation, having stolen thousands of dollars in merchandise over the years. When Green Arrow catches on to him, Merlin stays one step ahead of him, catching him off guard and even breaking his bow during their confrontation before escaping. Later recruited by the Hand, Merlin is hired to steal gold from Cactus Mike, managing to fend off Green Arrow the entire time and even letting the hero go when his goal is in his sights.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#68385: Feb 2nd 2022 at 8:29:33 PM

Thanks, I'll figure out title formatting Friday.

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#68387: Feb 2nd 2022 at 8:34:27 PM

Yes to Sakura, Kaz, Orca, Bethod and Derek.

I have a question about another Star Trek character and whether he can count, Legate Damar:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Damar#:~:text=Legate%20Damar%20may%20be%20the,its%20leader%20under%20the%20Dominion.

He is a hard question to gauge because he goes through different phases, starting off as a typical slimy, bigotted Cardassian officer, later becoming a Dominion lackey who coped with it by becoming a drunken loser, but by the end, he becomes a more bad ass Cardassian freedom fighter.

I wonder if he could be an MB through character development, he was always intelligent, but likely started off as a Smug Snake, but I wonder if he became magnificent when he became a freedom fighter. He slowly loses his bigotry and dependence on alcohol, he does need Major Kira and Garak's help to go from a by-the-books soldier to an insurgent, but he does ultimately succeed in creating a successful resistance movement against the Dominion.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#68388: Feb 2nd 2022 at 8:48:43 PM

Sounds like a keeper imo. Go for it.

Aye to Derek.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#68390: Feb 3rd 2022 at 4:21:51 AM

Character development could definitely help them land Overlord.

SpaceProtagonist (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
#68391: Feb 3rd 2022 at 5:08:03 AM

Okay. I have an idea for a potential candidate who stands a chance of qualifying. But first I'd like to confirm something. Most candidates in question need to originate from a narrative work or a piece of media that has enough of a plot to be "proper story". But now that I've been thinking, I'm not sure whether my work has the narrative outline necessary. What do you think?

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#68392: Feb 3rd 2022 at 6:06:10 AM

[up] Space, that's too unspecific to tell what it is. Mind telling us what work it is?

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#68393: Feb 3rd 2022 at 6:43:41 AM

Draft for Hersh and updated tree for Person of Interest. Hersh would be in-between Root and Kohl since he is introduced later. Will want help for potholes.

  • Person of Interest
    • Carl Elias, a New York City crime boss and the illegitimate son of Don Gianni Moretti, evaded his father's attempts to kill him after witnessing the latter having his mother killed and spent decades building his own power base, even using a job as a teacher to siphon off mob recruits. Evading arrest after killing his mother's assailant, Elias later assists, then double-crosses Reese, forcing him to give Elias his father's hiding place, going on to take control of much of the city's crime scene while having his right-hand man kill his hated father while Elias seemingly quietly surrenders to the police. In prison Elias expands his business, even helping Team Machine from behind bars and when nearly killed by Russian mobsters, prepares to calmly accept his fate. When rescued, Elias works with Carter to turn HR and the Russian Mafia against one-another and when faced with the challenge of yet another gang, prepares swiftly to fight them when they kill his loyal right-hand, even outwitting their leader Dominic while under torture. After surviving an assassination attempt by Samaritan, Elias goes underground with Team Machine's help and dies giving his life to protect Finch from the rogue A.I.
    • Samantha "Root" Groves is a cyberterrorist and Professional Killer whose first crime was framing a murderer for stealing from a drug lord. Learning about The Machine after an assassination coverup was foiled, Root puts a hit out on herself to lure Finch and Reese out, kidnapping the latter for information on The Machine while sending Reese to solve her friend's murder. Becoming the Machine's analog interface after searching for it, Root breaks out of a mental hospital and assists in Team Machine's fight against HR, running interference for The Machine and ensuring the team's continued survival by installing faulty servers when the malevolent A.I. Samaritan comes online, eventually giving her life to protect Finch. A Master Actor who can slip in and out of roles and pick up skills along the way, Root is one of Team Machine's deadliest foes and greatest assets.
    • "Robert N. Hersh", real name George, is a high-ranking agent for Northern Lights, the government organization using The Machine's data. As The Fixer for Northern Lights, Hersh is responsible for many tasks, including the training of recruits, helping his bosses with leading long-term double lives, and snuffing out leaks about The Machine by any means necessary. Introduced sabotaging a murder investigation through corrupting the files and breaking the chain of custody, Hersh later infiltrates Riker's Island and subsequently escapes when his quarry does, then executes an assassination in a crowded street, his target only surviving because of Team Machine. His ruthlessness tempered by his regard for his colleagues (even former ones) and impersonal approach, Hersh's last moments are spent trying to stop a terrorist attack, coming within seconds of thwarting it.
    • "Foe": Ulrich Kohl was once a Stasi operative who executed East German defectors on his country's behalf. After the fall of the Berlin Wall, Kohl was betrayed by his former teammates and imprisoned for 24 years. Escaping after his captors believed he had grown too old and feeble to be dangerous, Kohl immediately proved them wrong, setting out to take revenge on his former comrades, blaming them for the apparent death of his beloved wife. A cool-headed man with a formidable knowledge of spycraft, chemistry, and biology, Kohl methodically hunts his targets while evading pursuit, succeeding in killing all but one of them, with one only surviving because of Reese's intervention. Learning that his wife is still alive, Kohl seeks her out, easily subduing the much younger and stronger Reese when he interferes and engaging in a calm discussion while torturing him. Eventually confronting his wife and hitherto unknown daughter, Kohl comes to accept the toll his actions had taken upon him, ultimately coercing Reese into shooting him and dying content that, while his own humanity is a lost cause, a part of him would live on in his daughter.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#68394: Feb 3rd 2022 at 7:01:37 AM

Okay so question. Does like Kohl need to be this big? It just seems weird that a motw has a writeup the same size as three of the shows biggest recurring villains.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#68395: Feb 3rd 2022 at 7:17:46 AM

I’d be fine with him getting trimmed.

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#68396: Feb 3rd 2022 at 8:09:02 AM

Okay, I proposed Kohl a ways back, so how's this for a trim:

  • "Foe": Ulrich Kohl was a ruthless Stasi operative before being betrayed by his teammates and imprisoned for 24 years. Escaping after his captors believed he'd grown too old and weak to be dangerous, Kohl set out to take revenge on his former comrades, blaming them for the apparent death of his wife. Using his formidable knowledge of spycraft, chemistry, and biology, Kohl methodically hunts his targets while evading pursuit, killing all but one of them. Learning of his wife's survival, Kohl seeks her out, easily subduing Reese when he interferes, and engaging in a calm discussion with Reese while torturing him. Eventually confronting his wife and hitherto unknown daughter, Kohl accepts the toll his past had taken on him, coercing Reese into shooting him and dying content that the best part of him survives in his wife and child.

Edited by DeCarta on Feb 3rd 2022 at 12:52:44 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
HighfalutinQuelea Since: Sep, 2016
#68398: Feb 3rd 2022 at 8:50:43 AM

Characters With CM And MB Incarnations only permits one MB and CM example each for each character. I find it unnecessarily restrictive when all the other lists (such as the regular CM and MB incarnation list) have every incarnation added, and it misses out on some good works.

I doubt the length would be affected that much, it's only about one or two more examples for most.

I suggest we remove that restriction.

Edited by HighfalutinQuelea on Feb 3rd 2022 at 8:53:26 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#68400: Feb 3rd 2022 at 9:03:38 AM

Wouldn't that make it redundant with the incarnations per character pages?

Like it seems weird to have it all listed twice.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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