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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#68126: Jan 29th 2022 at 7:57:13 PM

[tup]Tommy.

So....just watched Catwoman: Hunted. It seems to have been leaked early, though, so I'm not sure when the discussion date should be.

Why so serious?
227someguy I hate spoilers Since: Apr, 2017
I hate spoilers
#68127: Jan 29th 2022 at 7:57:32 PM

Time for my sixth Dragalia Lost character. This one is Alex, The Sixth Ranger of the group. No, that was not intended.

Who is Alex?

Alex (who is girl) is an assassin hired by the Corrupt Church to kill anyone who's a threat to them. This includes Elisanne, who's Childhood Friends with her. Eventually, she falls into the employment of Leonidas under the condition that he will protect an orphanage for her. This results in her encountering the heroes, who convince her to pull a Heel–Face Turn and join them. While on their side, Alex continues to watch over Elisanne, complete with Ho Yay. Alex is also a Friend to All Children, since she donates money to an orphanage and turning orphans into assassins like her is a Berserk Button.

Is she Magnificent?

Yes, she is. Alex possesses a keen eye, and knows when others are sneaking around, waiting for their targets to drop their guard. Her playstyle also involves debuffing the enemy and poisoning them as a Knife Nut, putting her assassin shtick high on the Sliding Scale of Gameplay and Story Integration. She's also an Excellent Judge of Character, as shown when she suspects that Elisanne is hiding a secret from everyone and tries to press her on what it is.

Is he a Bitch? Too much?

Enough to qualify, at least. Her first appearance has her trying to kill Elisanne in the beginning of the game, and her Heel–Face Turn doesn't come until the end of Chapter 8, where most of her time is spent as a villain. She's also been involved in numerous assassinations which haunt her and guide her actions as The Atoner. She's reminded of said crimes more than once, and it's clear that she used to do some bad stuff. To put it into perspective, she apparently knows and was on somewhat good terms with the Ax-Crazy Dorothy.

Any Mitigating Factors?

None at all. While she does initially try to go Leeroy Jenkins at the guy who made her and several other orphans into assassins, Alex is quickly talked out of it and learns her lesson the easy way. It's also obvious that she hasn't gotten any Redemption Demotion, as she quickly learns that she's being manipulated by an Evil Former Friend named Dorothy (who was almost worthy for this trope), and adapts rather easily. When Elisanne confronts Alex after she's been framed for murder, they manage to use The Power of Friendship to subtly communicate with each other, causing Elisanne to start Faking the Dead. This lets her eavesdrop on a couple of bad guys (one of whom is Dorothy), causing them to spill some incriminating information that lets them know who the real bad guys are.

Final Verdict

I think she qualifies. Alex is smart, regardless of whose side she's on, and helps others keep their head on their shoulders.

Everyone look at my sandbox
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#68130: Jan 29th 2022 at 8:28:25 PM

[tup] to Cotillion, Ardeth, the Heavy, Vercetti and Alex.

[tdown] to Grey and classic Heavy.

Cut Zantasio.

Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Jan 29th 2022 at 8:28:36 AM

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#68131: Jan 29th 2022 at 8:51:24 PM

Sure to Alex.

I must not have been paying attention when I voted in that particular instance regarding Zanta. It's been two years. Cut away.

For what its worth, I have been more careful with how I vote, and especially when the candidate is a dreaded "crossover".

RyanPuffs She/Her from Big Bill Hell's Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
She/Her
#68132: Jan 29th 2022 at 10:51:31 PM

[tup] to Alex

Well I just finished Not For Broadcast for the first time. With the two week rule, I have more time to reply the game and see the rest of the footage and endings to see who might qualify

Profile picture by @BoxNazrin on Bluesky. Give her a follow!
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#68134: Jan 30th 2022 at 1:00:21 AM

Yes to Tommy and Alex

I'm fairly certain I called Catwoman: Hunted awhile back here alongside with CM, which can be verified by looking at the CM discussion dates page. I just hadn't gotten around to pegging it down at the MB discussion dates, as well. That was a misstep on my part, but I'm normally very good about keeping my name on both discussion dates pages for works I'm interested in on both threads.

EDIT: Yep, called it way back in August. I fully admit I screwed up by not adding it to the dates here, but I did on CM and I've got the verification to prove as much. So I'd like to maintain that reservation here, as well.

Edited by Ravok on Jan 30th 2022 at 1:26:20 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Siegfried1337 Calabash. from The Eastern Luminant Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
Calabash.
#68135: Jan 30th 2022 at 2:02:07 AM

[tup] to Alex.

Your reservation is still good.

Edited by Siegfried1337 on Jan 30th 2022 at 2:02:40 AM

Eh, good enough.
DrakeClawfang Since: Apr, 2010
#68136: Jan 30th 2022 at 4:54:10 AM

Draft write-up for Emet-Selch


Emet-Selch is one of the Ascians, dedicated to resurrecting their god Zodiark by initiating Rejoinings between the Source and its shards. As one of their most cunning members, Emet-Selch carefully manipulates events to cause Rejoinings through mass destruction and chaos, and will spend decades or even centuries overseeing the execution of his plans. When the Warrior of Light and the Scions of the Seventh Dawn prove themselves a repeated thorn in his side, Emet-Selch tells them he thinks they should be his allies and explains that the Ascians are trying to restore the world to the paradise they knew in ancient times. Though he is slain by the Warrior of Light, Emet-Selch's spirit returns to help them on several occasions, and he ultimately comes to accept that the civilization he lost is truly gone. When his spirit finally fades away for good, he does so with a smile, entrusting the legacy of the world to the Warrior of Light and their comrades.

Edited by DrakeClawfang on Jan 30th 2022 at 5:02:48 AM

Ya-Dun-Goofed Since: Jan, 2022
#68137: Jan 30th 2022 at 5:48:41 AM

Ok so now that they Heavy writeup is both done and posted I think we can do the Team Fortress 2 page now.

Edited by Ya-Dun-Goofed on Jan 30th 2022 at 7:11:55 AM

Demonlordbelial mu Since: Sep, 2021
mu
#68138: Jan 30th 2022 at 7:59:43 AM

By the way, look at what I found on the Horus Heresy page: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/HorusHeresy

Magnificent Bastard: Lion El'Jonson loves his Xanatos gambits and secrets, but he is the primarch of the Dark Angels.

Lorgar and his Legion tend to take the cake, given they set everything rolling.

The Alpha Legion operate in the Age of Darkness story 'Liar's Due' has this as his hat. He manages to make a loyalist world self destruct/declare for Horus with a single broadcast and their own prejudices.

The demon in Prospero Burns. It planted a spy in the Space Wolves that it knew the Wolves would find and believe was sent by the Thousand Sons, which in turn guaranteed that when Magnus the Red tried to warn the Emperor of Horus's impending betrayal via sorcery, he would not only be disbelieved, but treated as a traitor. As a direct result, the Space Wolves were all but annihilated the Thousand Sons and Magnus turned in desperation to Tzeentch to save what remained. Not only that, but this plan was considered only a partial victory. The demon (possibly Tzeentch/one of his agents) had intended for the Space Wolves/Russ and the Thousand Sons/Magnus to destroy one another completely, as they represented the most powerful magical and physical barriers (respectively) to Horus's impending heresy. Instead, the Space Wolves were only bloodied, but the Thousand Sons survived and turned to Chaos.

And now, as of Age of Darkness's last story, it appears that Lion El'Johnson may not be as deceptive as first appears. That honour would go to... Roboute Guilliman.

Madail would qualify, too. For most of The Damnation of Pythos, the Iron Hands might as well be renamed the Iron Marionettes for how well they got suckered by him.iv

Can any connoisseur of warhammer 40,000 comment on this?

Edited by Demonlordbelial on Jan 30th 2022 at 1:01:55 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#68139: Jan 30th 2022 at 8:18:10 AM

Alrighty: first off yes to Alex there some.

Now to address the various posts:, I remember Rav did call that one; Emet-Selch writeup looks good Drake; I'm fine with a TF2 page if you'd like to go ahea and start drafting one & I know Lighy's done most of the 40k stuff.

227someguy I hate spoilers Since: Apr, 2017
I hate spoilers
#68140: Jan 30th 2022 at 8:41:46 AM

With enough [tup]s, here's my write-up for Alex.

Alex is an assassin hired by the Church of Ilia to kill anyone who they deem a threat. Under their service, she has killed an untold amount of people, using her salary to donate to any orphanage she comes across. Eventually, she chooses to work for Leonidas before being redeemed by the paladyn Elisanne. Upon being framed for attempted assassination and serial murder, Alex realizes the culprit is her old friend Dorothy, who's trying to bring her back into a life of crime. Alex uses this knowledge to pretend to kill Elisanne in order to expose Dorothy and her client, stopping them both when Elisanne overhears their conversation. Vowing to never take a human life again, Alex proves to be effective and perceptive regardless of whose side she's on.

Everyone look at my sandbox
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#68141: Jan 30th 2022 at 8:45:12 AM

Btw Drake just kind of as a heads up: for entries under 200 words we only use up to five potholes. I don't mean to sound critical because I'm perfectly happy picking excess ones and deleting them but I just say it because I'd be doing so at random and since it's your candidate I'm wondering if there are any in particular you'd rather be kept?

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#68142: Jan 30th 2022 at 8:52:21 AM

[tup]Alex.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#68143: Jan 30th 2022 at 8:55:36 AM

[tup]alex

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ya-Dun-Goofed Since: Jan, 2022
#68145: Jan 30th 2022 at 9:51:13 AM

@43110

Actually, I'm not totally sure how to make a proper new page or even a sandbox, so I probably wouldn't do a good job making the page.

My apologies.

I did put Heavy's writeup on the drafts page.

Edited by Ya-Dun-Goofed on Jan 30th 2022 at 9:51:40 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#68146: Jan 30th 2022 at 9:58:58 AM

That's fine I'll get to it eventually.

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#68147: Jan 30th 2022 at 10:44:36 AM

[tup] for Cotillion, Ardeth, the Heavy, Tommy, and Alex.

[tdown] for Grey, and the Classic Heavy.

Cut Zantafio.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#68148: Jan 30th 2022 at 11:32:28 AM

Alright, lemme get this one up before all my writeups:

What's the Work?

As I posted:

Looper is a film by Rian Johnson. In the future, Time Travel is invented and immediately outlawed. The only ones who use it are criminal syndicates to get away with murder. Employing killers called Loopers, they send back people to be shot by the Loopers, with silver as a payday...this continues until they give Loopers a retirement package to close the loop: send back older versions of the loopers with a gold payday. Enjoy the next thirty year until you're sent back to be shot. Joe is a Looper who fails to kill his older self..

Who is Joe?

A Looper who performs executions for the organization. Joe freely admits that the job doesn't attract very 'forward thinking' folks as he puts it. Joe is a functional and skilled Looper who kills people on the regular, hiding his friend Seth when he confesses to Joe that he failed to kill his future self. Abe, the organization head, forces Joe to give up Seth by threatening to take his silver payments...

Things go poorly for Joe when the next Loop is his future self. Old Joe escapes, putting Joe on the chopping block, but Joe is more than talented enough to elude and misdirect Abe's elite Gat Men. Joe meets with his future self and learns his future: his wife will be killed by the Rainmaker, a terrifiyng crime lord in the future, and Old Joe plans to kill him as a child. Joe manages to steal Old Joe's map, to find out which child will become the Rainmaker.

There are three potentials, Old Joe plans to kill them all. Joe finds one, a boy named Cid who lives with his mom Sarah...Joe realizes Cid is the future Rainmaker from his psychic powers and falls in love with Sarah....Old Joe wipes out Abe and gets to the farm

Realizing that this is a Stable Time Loop, what will turn Cid is Sarah's death. Joe recognizes that Cid can be saved if Sarah lives and unable to stop his future self, he realizes the one way to beat him: shooting himself and erasing Old Joe from exitence, giving Cid a chance at peace.

Mitigating Issues?

Nah. Joe is a skilled, intelligent hitman who performs admirably when the whole world is against him. He comes up with decent plans and at the end, he erases himself to stp his future self.

Is he a bastard? Hell yes, he's an assassin for a criminal organization. He gives up his friend to them just to keep his money. But Joe has standards, falls in love with Sarah and dies for her and Cid's sake.

Conclusion?

Keep.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#68149: Jan 30th 2022 at 11:34:56 AM

[tup]Joe.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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