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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#68101: Jan 29th 2022 at 4:13:16 PM

Alright, this is later than I was hoping, but here's an EP.

What's the work?

Grand Theft Auto: Vice City is pretty much what you get when you cross Scarface (1983) with Miami Vice while removing the more deconstructive elements of both. While not revolutionary in the same way Grand Theft Auto III was, it's still a milestone in the series due to having the first full-fledged protagonist: Tommy Vercetti, voiced by none other than Ray Liotta.

Who is he? What has he done?

Tommy Vercetti starts out as a member of the Forelli Crime Family, one of the main Mafia families in Liberty City. After surviving an attempted assassination in Harwood, he was sent to prison; after Sonny Forelli pulls some strings, he gets released and is sent south to Vice City to expand the Forelli family's influence over the drug trade in Florida. Ambushed at the docks while trying to negotiate a drug deal, Tommy partners up with a lawyer named Ken Rosenberg and starts planning to get Sonny's money and drugs back. Not long after, he starts doing odd jobs for Colonel Juan Cortez and meets Lance Vance, who wants revenge for the death of his brother Vic in the ambush. Not long afterwards, Tommy and Lance start working for a drug lord named Ricardo Diaz after saving him from a Haitian gang, only to discover that it was Diaz who arranged the ambush. While Tommy decides to try and gain Diaz's trust, Lance loses patience and secretly tries to kill Diaz on his own. Unfortunately, this doesn't go well, and Tommy is forced to save him. Their cover blown, Tommy and Lance storm Diaz's mansion and claim their revenge by killing him, then take over his enterprise.

The end, right? Nope!

Once he takes over, Tommy starts thinking big. Dissatisfied with sticking to protection rackets and the drug trade, he decides to branch out into legitimate businesses and acquires several, some of which he turns into fronts for illegal operations, others he allows to run legally. To expand his enterprises, he gets personally involved with their management, engaging in cunning and underhanded tactics like blackmailing a politician and selling drugs out of ice cream trucks. He also seeks to cement his hold by forging ties with other prominent individuals in vice city, such as real estate mogul Avery Carrington, Arms Dealer Phil Cassidy, mysterious assassination contractor Mr. Black, and biker gang leader Mitch Baker, often helping them out with various tasks. Tommy also finds the time to help out Kent Paul, manager of Hair Metal band Love Fist.

During this time, however, Sonny grows irritated at Tommy not paying his dues and eventually sends goons over to collect. Tommy kills them and, anticipating that Sonny himself will come down to Vice City, uses a printing business he owns to make some Counterfeit Cash to placate him. Unfortunately, Lance betrays Tommy and joins up with Sonny, telling him about Tommy's plan and where he can find real money.

Now, this would be the point where most crime lords meet their end.

Tommy is not most crime lords.

While understandably caught off-guard, Tommy manages to recover quickly, and comments to Sonny that he just wanted to piss him off before he killed him. A massive firefight ensues, in which Tommy confronts Lance on the roof and kills him. When he heads back downstairs to finish off his enemies, Sonny reveals to Tommy that he set him up in Harwood; it's implied he might've also been involved with the ambush at the docks.

The game ends with him having eliminated all serious opposition and cementing his hold over Vice City. Kent Paul's website implies he's still in power in 2002, over 15 years later.

Is he magnificent?

The best way I can sum up his character is that he's who Henry Hill wishes he was. He's an intelligent man who can juggle his legal and illegal enterprises, come up with plans, and improvise when when he has to. While he does have a quick temper, it's not bad enough to truly undermine him, unlike, say, Tony Montana. He's certainly not lacking in the charm department either, and when he's not raging, he comes off as a guy you wouldn't mind shooting the shit with.

Is he a bastard?

Ooh yeah, he's a bastard even by the standards of GTA protagonists. There's a reason people compare him to a less deranged Trevor. He's a murderous thug for whom remorse is virtually unknown, and he amasses quite the body count over the course of the game.

That being said, contrary to the Common Knowledge of him being a one-dimensional murder machine, he does have a heart, black as it may be. He genuinely cares about those he considers friends, even if they aggravate him sometimes. He likes and respects Cortez, is clearly pissed when Sonny's thugs assault Old Man Kelly, and takes Lance's betrayal very personally. Tommy never crosses the line into being genuinely despicable either.

Now, I feel the need to clear the air on two things some fans like to fixate on: him "mistreating" Lance and "abandoning" Ken. There are fans who claim that Tommy abused Lance and drove him to betray him. What these fans don't tell you is that this "abuse" only happens in one cutscene, where he yells at Lance for just sitting around instead of helping deal with a bar refusing to pay protection money. Overall, he's a lot more tolerant of Lance than most people would be. As for Ken, the man had a severe cocaine problem and needed rehab, and we never really learn why Tommy stopped returning his calls. So these things don't weigh against him as much as one might think from talking to these fans.

Other factors?

Well, he does have a handful of undignified moments and there are a couple times where people get the better of him (a good example of both being him getting brainwashed by a Haitian mystic into attacking a Cuban gang), but they're not enough to diminish his overall presence.

Verdict?

[tup] to Tommy.

By the way, I'm checking out a 70s horror movie for a possible conventional yet unconventional keeper.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#68102: Jan 29th 2022 at 4:20:20 PM

[tup]Cotillion, Ardeth, Heavy, & Tommy

[tdown]Grey & Classic Heavy

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#68103: Jan 29th 2022 at 4:22:59 PM

[tup]tommy

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
RyanPuffs She/Her from Big Bill Hell's Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
She/Her
#68105: Jan 29th 2022 at 4:30:32 PM

[tup] for Tommy

Profile picture by @BoxNazrin on Bluesky. Give her a follow!
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#68106: Jan 29th 2022 at 4:35:46 PM

[tup] to Nas, Chandell and co, Detective Quentin Conners, Kobayashi, Jason York, Peter Gordon, Big Jim, Aunty Entity, Moribund, Chronos, Oscar Diggs, Emma Swan, King Henry V, Furiosa, Chuck Greene, Four Eyes, Hangfire, Walker, Lord Iowerth, Lash, Vastra, Shasti, Leshy, Jesse Custer, Havoc, P03, Scarlet Lake, Aeron, Jonah Hex, Beau, Lapis, Grimora, Carrie White, Magnificus, Reggie, Victor Sono, Arthur, Ernet-Selch, the Old Prisoner, Anomander Rake, Coltaine, John Quinn, Cotillion, Ardeth Bay, the Heavy and Tommy Vercetti.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#68108: Jan 29th 2022 at 5:02:53 PM

Unsure on Tommy, some of those things in the EP are setting off alarm bells (his temper and his undignified moments), but I'm not sure if they're enough to be truly disqualifying. I'm abstaining.

Again MGD manages to impress us with his vote list.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#68109: Jan 29th 2022 at 5:09:45 PM

Yes to Cotillion, Ardeth, Heavy, and Tommy.

I don't mean to press, but does anyone else have an opinion on the Garak video?

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#68110: Jan 29th 2022 at 5:21:39 PM

Also in terms of Complete Monster Magificent Bastards cross overs, there is a version of Skeletor in a recent CGI He-Man cartoon, where he is smart enough to trick his minions after they try to betray him, but he is so petty, cruel and childish, he is not Magificent. He wants to force King Randor to watch as he kills his son.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#68111: Jan 29th 2022 at 5:28:00 PM

[tup] Tommy Vercetti.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#68112: Jan 29th 2022 at 5:43:02 PM

[up][up] I will admit the idea of an MB Skeletor is pretty unusual in general since one of his defining traits is how childish and petty he is. We only have two in comparison to his several dozen CM ones.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#68113: Jan 29th 2022 at 5:47:13 PM

What exactly is the context of Tommy's rage breakdowns? Is it portrayed to make him look pathetic?

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#68114: Jan 29th 2022 at 5:54:01 PM

[up] They're not "rage breakdowns", and it's generally him using his anger rather than letting it use him.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jan 29th 2022 at 5:54:12 AM

Siegfried1337 Calabash. from The Eastern Luminant Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
Calabash.
#68115: Jan 29th 2022 at 5:59:12 PM

After evaluating your EP... [tup] for Tommy.

Eh, good enough.
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#68116: Jan 29th 2022 at 6:00:54 PM

I'll abstain on Tommy for now.

Yeah, that Skeletor is a classic case of a villain absolutely having all the traits to keep but being mitigated by having too many vile and nasty traits as well— he's literal inches from being a crossover of the "Barely a CM but definitely an MB" variety (And his foiling of the Dark Masters' coup would've made for a delightful video example) but the sheer pettiness that comes with him keeps him handily off MB.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Jan 29th 2022 at 6:06:14 AM

TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#68117: Jan 29th 2022 at 6:02:16 PM

[tup] Heavy

Also [tup] Tommy, dude has anger issues but he knows how to control them when it comes to business, hell he knows how to use it to his advantage too, and sometimes the people he's dealing with, being just angry is a massive feat of composure.

Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Jan 29th 2022 at 6:07:49 AM

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#68119: Jan 29th 2022 at 6:13:57 PM

Yes to Ardath (he and Imhotep are different characters in the remake, huh), Heavy x2, and Tommy but not feeling Gray Mann.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#68120: Jan 29th 2022 at 6:21:17 PM

[tup] to Cotillion, Ardeth, Tommy and Heavy

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
227someguy I hate spoilers Since: Apr, 2017
I hate spoilers
#68121: Jan 29th 2022 at 6:23:53 PM

[tup] to Tommy.

Also, it's always nice to see MGD107 give [tup]s to so many characters. I noticed two of mine there.

Everyone look at my sandbox
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Ya-Dun-Goofed Since: Jan, 2022
#68124: Jan 29th 2022 at 7:40:54 PM

[tup] Tommy

Ok, now that Heavy has enough [tup], lemme try my hand at his writeup:

"The Heavy" is a skilled Russian mercenary whose large stature and poor English hide his real intelligence. A man who greatly enjoys battle, the Heavy is willing to accept his own failings without letting them get in the way of killing entire enemy armies. When the team is disbanded, Heavy returns to his native Russia to provide for his mother and sisters, only rejoining the team when he is assured that his family will be safe. Able to figure out a great deal of Miss Pauling's and the Administrator's plan just from a short sentence by Miss Pauling, Heavy always has a calm demeanor when needed and is always ready for an intense situation, such as making an Enemy Mine with Saxton Hale and breaking into Grey Mann's headquarters to rescue the other Mercenaries. In "Showdown", the Heavy manages to turn a pack of vicious guard dogs into his own attack dogs simply by feeding them, breaking into the Administrator's secret HQ simply to ask for more weapons. He also has a genuine friendship with and care for the Medic, and helped him kill the Classic Heavy.

Edited by Ya-Dun-Goofed on Jan 29th 2022 at 7:41:26 AM

Ithoughtof1name Since: Jan, 2022 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form

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