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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
DrakeClawfang Since: Apr, 2010
#67927: Jan 28th 2022 at 10:56:59 AM

@Starcrusher - roger. I may have a candidate then, though there is a serious mitigating factor to consider. I don't have time to EP them right now but will later today. Thanks.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#67928: Jan 28th 2022 at 11:11:31 AM

Sooo...I got a fantasy series with like, um, a bunch of probable keepers.

What's the work?

The Malazan Book of the Fallen is an epic, messy fantasy. I'll quote the tropes page: "The Malazan Empire is yet in its infancy, but it has already seen its first betrayal. Surly, Master of the Claw, has assassinated Emperor Kellanved and his closest companion, Dancer, and taken the throne under the name Laseen, continuing the Empire's policy of ruthless expansionism, though she is continually mistrusted. Almost immediately, the new gods of the Shadow Realm, Shadowthrone and Cotillion, launch a plot against her, but stumble into a web of far grander plans among their fellow Ascendants. So begin the Tales of the Malazan Book of the Fallen, a grand tragedy told from the perspectives of dozens if not hundreds of characters across three arcs, each beginning on a distinct continent."

Our first discussion is going to be one of the most effective warriors in the series: Anomander Rake.

Who is Anomander Rake?

An ancient Tiste Andii. Think...how do I put this...they're dark elves, and Rake is a S Oletaken, a type of Tiste Andii who can turn into dragons. Lord of the castle Moon's Spawn, Son of Darkness and named such by Mother Dark, the goddess of the Tiste Andii. Rake is an Ascended, who has grown to have the power of gods, master of High House Dark, and wielder of the cursed sword Dragnipur, a gigantic blade that steals the souls of its victims. Rake was the slayer of the elder god Draconus, killing him with his own sword Dragnipur an taking his soul...he also betrayed their founding goddess Mother Dark, deserting her in a time of need.

Having led the Tiste Andii for ages, Rake staves off their immortal boredom by selling them as mercenaries, but secretly longs for a cause to inspire them to their old greatness. Malazan, you see, is sick...the goddess Burn, the world itself, is poisoned by the Crippled God, an ancient and mad being cast into the world. Rake is one of the chief opposition to the Crippled God and the expansionist Malazan Empire. When the Malazan forces attack the continent of Genabackis, they face Anomander Rake, who brings his floating castle armed with lasers Moon's Spawn down and uses his own presence to stymie the forces of the Malazan army. Rake plays the game of politics and war alike, and at the end of the Malazan Empire deserts to fight the horrific approaching Pannion Domin, an expansionist and brutal empire...Rake's forces are a confederation between himself, the warlord Caladan Brood and Kallor, an ancient tyrant who ruled the world a hundred thousand years ago.

Rake proceeds to prove a pretty awesome Team Dad to everyone, approving the Malazan commander Whiskeyjack's romance with his subordinate Korlat...and at the climax of the Domin war, rake lures them into a trap and smashes them...

Rake continues his forces commitment to protecting Genabackis and facing the forces of the Crippled God, until he faces the champion of death, known as Traveller...Rake, realizing what he must do to save his people, lets Traveller kill him so his own sword is forced back into his skull. With his soul inside Dragnipur, he recovers the power of Mother Dark held there, frees the souls within and brings his people back Mother Dark and their old strength, earning Draconus's forgiveness and dispersing his own soul, giving all for the sake of his people.

Mitigating issues?

Malazan's gonna have a LOT of these, guys. I can think of like 6-7 off the top of my head alone. But Rake? Rake is one of the primes. Not only is he pretty awesome, being a badass dark elf who turns into a dragon with a soul stealing sword and a giant floating castle WMD, Rake is ancient, wise, intelligent, charismatic, bold and even his death is part of a plan. There's no chanc ehe doesn't hit every note here with what he pulls above.

Is he a bastard? Lesse. He betrayed his goddess, his friend Draconus, he has a sword that steals souls into an eternal prison, he uses his allies as bait, he gets his people involved as mercenaries...yes, Rake is easily a bastard. Is he evil? No. Rake loves his people, has a bajillion decent qualities to him and has honor, intellect and some great moments all about.

Conclusion?

Like, yes. Pretty basic yes.

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#67929: Jan 28th 2022 at 11:14:02 AM

[tup]Rake

Here's my (late) write-up, sorry:

  • Whoniverse Madame Vastra is a Silurian living among humans during the 19th century in Victorian London, and a member of the Paternoster Gang. After being prematurely awakened by construction workers in Victorian London, Vastra goes on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge for her sisters who were accidentally killed, before being convinced to stop by the Doctor. Instead integrating into human society, Vastra marries her human maid, Jenny Flint, while taking up a job as a consulting detective for Scotland Yard, often eating the criminals she caught. As an ally of the Doctor, Vastra's cunning proved useful against many occasions. Vastra helps the Doctor secure control over Demon's Run, figures out how Melody Pond came to have Time Lord DNA. Her manipulative nature would also extend to her allies, where she uses psychological mind games as a form of Tough Love, helping to pull the Doctor out of his depression, tricking Clara into going into a trance by dousing a letter in soporific, and using the Doctor's own psychic-link to put him into a healing sleep. Vastra proves herself an irreplaceable ally of the Doctor, every bit as ruthless as she is brilliant.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#67930: Jan 28th 2022 at 11:18:28 AM

[tup]Rake

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#67932: Jan 28th 2022 at 11:25:46 AM

My second for now..Coltaine.

Who is Coltaine?

The leader of the Wickan clans, a nomadic people of the plains conquered by the Malazan empire and brought into their forces. Coltaine is an intelligent, brilliant tactician who leads the Crow Clan. Named a Fist by Empress Laseen, C Oltaine is sent to Genabackis and the city Darujhistan to safeguard the Malazan forces and put down a religious uprising known as the Whirlwind. Coltaine achieves a great deal of triumph on the field, but his forces are greatly outnumbered.

Commanding the 7th legion, Coltaine ends up in a perilous position: safeguarding a great host of refugees and soldiers. The Chain of Dogs. With the Whirlwind coming for them, Coltaine is left to protect the refugees...

And oh, does he. It's Coltaine's brilliance vs. a treacherous monster in Korbolo Dom, rogue fist who explicitly targets the refugees. Coltaine, at one point, uses some refugees as bait for the Whirlwind host to save the rest...and with his small forces charges in a cavalry strike...the historian observing says Coltaine has no chance, its like a knife plunging in the side of a whale...only for Coltaine to wheel along their sides cutting the host to ribbons. "Not a knife stab. A saber strike."

Coltaine's tactics bring the refugees to safety at the City of Aren...but the Whirlwind closing in, Coltaine makes a final stand and buys time with his forces. The remaining soldiers are hidden behind the walls and forced to watch as Coltaine buys them every second with his life, until he's brought down.

Korbolo Dom has him crucified in full view of the city. According to Wickan beliefs, a crow comes for a warrior upon death to carry their soul into the next life. For Coltaine, a gigantic murder of crows descends, but Korbolo Dom has his mage burn the crows away...Duiker, the historian, has one archer deliver mercy: sending an arrow out in a perfect shot to end the suffering Coltaine's life...

The crows take his soul, and Coltaine is reincarnated as a child in a new life.

Mitigating issues?

We rarely see Coltaine, but we see enough. He's stoic, but with a good sense of humor. He's strong, charismatic and his men worship him. He's a genius tactician, one who's so valuable that Laseen literally sends him a reincarnation free card because the empire cannot lose him. He gives it to Duiker instead because it'd violate his beliefs and he needs Duiker to tell their story...

Coltaine is leading acontingent of refugees through hostile land, harried by a numerically larger force. And he does it brilliantly. You want bastard, Coltaine is the commander of an expansionist imperialist force and flat out sacrifices some refugees to save others, which earns a lot of ill will, but Coltaine and the Wickans' seeming lack of care is described as them paying nothing but respect to the dead, venerating them.

And when it comes time? Coltaine makes a stand knowing he faces torture and death for it.

Conclusion?

Another easy keeper.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#67933: Jan 28th 2022 at 11:31:43 AM

[tup]Coltaine

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#67935: Jan 28th 2022 at 11:31:50 AM

Yes to Emet, the prisoner, Rake and Coltaine. What Star said about comedy candidates... frequently it helps with charm tbh.

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#67936: Jan 28th 2022 at 11:38:39 AM

Yes to the Prisoner, Rake, and Coltaine. Abstain from Emet cuz I'm finally playing this damn game and I wanna dodge as many spoilers as possible. BTW since Gaius was brought up, I'm pretty sure he counts and I was gonna do him once I was finished doing the research.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#67937: Jan 28th 2022 at 11:52:14 AM

Also Lighty... I love you buddy but as I've asked before, link to work pages if they exist in your effort posts.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#67938: Jan 28th 2022 at 12:05:16 PM

Sorry! I'll work on remembering that

TotemGenitor Bye Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Bye
#67939: Jan 28th 2022 at 12:48:27 PM

[tup] Emet, Prisoner, Rake, Coltaine

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#67940: Jan 28th 2022 at 12:59:37 PM

[tup] for Anomander Rake and Coltaine.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#67941: Jan 28th 2022 at 1:02:58 PM

[tup] to Rake and Coltaine.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#67942: Jan 28th 2022 at 1:05:04 PM

Also in general guys help me out so I don't have to correct so much formatting please: work names are italicized, if you're working with someone in a single arc, or episode you put that in quotation marks and then a colon before the entry, stuff without works gets a year parenthetical if it's a movie, show or game and a comma then [by author] if printed. This isn't hard and I've gotta tinker with a lot each week, please take the five seconds to get in the habit of putting this in your entries.

Edit: Also taking manga Yashahime as on CM.

Edited by 43110 on Jan 28th 2022 at 9:20:35 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#67943: Jan 28th 2022 at 1:55:30 PM

[tup]Rake and Coltaine.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#67944: Jan 28th 2022 at 1:57:59 PM

So, it's 2022 now. Figured it's best to start off the year by finally finishing up some long-term projects that have been ongoing for a while now. And what better way to start than with my last (until I finish the books) proposal from 24.

So there was some guy I overlooked in Season 7. Might not count, but figured an EP wouldn't hurt anyway. For those who forgot, Season 7 focused on a bunch of African terrorists from Sangala, led by Benjamin Juma, who try to cripple America for interfering with their genocide. Like most seasons of 24, all these terrorists are arrested or killed halfway in, and the plot shifts to a new set of terrorists—a bunch of mercenaries who supplied Juma with biological weapons. When Jack Bauer begins to piece together who Juma's supplier is, the supplier in question dispatches one of his assassins to "control" the situation...

Who Is He?

John Quinn is an assassin and a mercenary working for Jonas Hodges, the season’s second Disc-One Final Boss.

What Has He Done?

First appearing in the Redemption made-for-TV film, Quinn is contacted by a businessman named Nichols after one of his employees, Chris Whitley, discovers that he's been unintentionally embezzling money for Jonas Hodges. When Chris starts asking questions and sends money accounts to his hard drive at his apartment to investigate, Quinn and another associate break into Chris' apartment and interrogate him in the way it's usually done on the show. They recover the files Chris stole, kill him, and bury his body in cement.

In Season 7, Quinn returns dressed as a nurse and infiltrates a hospital. He seemingly starts taking care of an elderly patient, only to immediately suffocate him with a pillow. As the other medical workers rush to check on the man Quinn killed, Quinn sneaks into a ventilation unit and crawls towards Ryan Burnett's room. Burnett was one of many mercenaries who worked for Juma and had enough knowledge to expose Hodges, which he couldn't allow. As Jack tried to interrogate Burnett in his hospital bed, Quinn sabotaged the cameras and tossed a nerve agent into the room, paralyzing both men. Quinn sneaks inside, uses a shard of glass to murder Burnett, and frames Bauer for the murder by planting Bauer's fingerprints on the glass. As expected, the FBI believes Bauer killed Burnett. And as always, Bauer manages to escape before the FBI can apprehend him.

With nowhere else to turn, Bauer sneaks into Senator Blaine Mayer's residence so the two of them can dig up information about Hodges and his company, Starkwood. Quinn alerts Hodges that Bauer could be a problem and he's given permission to hunt him down. He tracks Mayer to his house and immediately guns down Mayer before chasing after Bauer as he flees. He encounters Bauer at an abandoned construction site and the two get into a huge fight that ends with Bauer lodging a screwdriver (yes, really) into his chest. As he lies on the ground dying, Quinn confesses that Starkwood has already brought a cache of bioweapons into Washington D.C.

Is He Charming? Charismatic? Magnificent?

Like Mandy and Jovan, his only main concern is his profession and satisfying his employers. He does his best not to cause wanton damage, but he's not above getting his hands dirty or killing anyone in his way. Instead of killing his victims outright, he makes sure that he leaves little-to-no trace. No one (presumably, because the show is infamous for not confirming what happens to minor characters) finds Chris' body because it was buried in cement. No one sees Quinn killing Burnett because he messes with the camera feed and audio, and when it's restored, Burnett's already dead. No one finds out Quinn murdered Senator Mayer because he got the hell outta dodge before the police could show up. And when it comes to killing Mayer, he just walks up to his front door and announces he's Metro PD, and when Mayer opened the door, he gunned him down.

Is He a Bastard? Too Much of a Bastard?

He seems to fit the bill. He's got a low bodycount, but all of his confirmed kills were high-profile witnesses and, in one case, a United States Senator. There is enough evidence to confirm that Whitley and Burnett were not Quinn's only two witnesses he silenced, as both Bauer and Mayer (before he dies) discover that Quinn was responsible for killing a whistleblower who planned on dismantling Starkwood after finding incriminating evidence. He's also not above causing collateral damage to achieve his goals, as demonstrated when he suffocated the elderly patient.

On top of all this, he was at least partially involved with some of Hodges' schemes, since he knew about the bioweapons and was killing anyone who tried to expose Starkwood.

Final Verdict?

Unsure. Again, this is another situation like with Kalil Hasan and Jovan Myovic. They got low bodycounts, but for the most part, they tick all the boxes and are very competent with their jobs. No sadism, no personal grudges, no breakdowns, no incessant failures and/or fuck-ups, etc.

As always I'll let you guys decide.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#67945: Jan 28th 2022 at 2:59:24 PM

I think I can disassociate Sebastian Roché from Jerry Jacks and say [tup] to Quinn. Haha. Another assassin who's about doing what he's paid for and not going too far. 24 has plenty of villains like that, assassin or not—ironic because of all the horrible villains who are not this that they have too, so there you go.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#67946: Jan 28th 2022 at 3:01:05 PM

[tup]Quinn

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#67947: Jan 28th 2022 at 4:11:16 PM

As always I feel willing to kill innocents passes the minimum heinous standard so to speak. It's why Jack is heinous enough for this, but as you have said he has other factors holding him back from this trope.

Anyway with that rambling [tup] Quinn.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#67948: Jan 28th 2022 at 4:49:54 PM

Yes to Rake, Coltaine, and Quinn.

DrakeClawfang Since: Apr, 2010
#67949: Jan 28th 2022 at 5:06:27 PM

Okay, EP for a possible candidate.

What is the work?

The work is Little Nicky, a comedy film starring Adam Sandler.

Who is the character?

The character is Adrian, one of the villains of the film.

What does he do?

Adrian, Cassius, and Nicky are the three sons of Satan — Adrian is the Evil Genius, Cassius is The Brute, and Nicky is "such a nice boy". After 10,000 years of ruling Hell, Satan is expected to retire and turn the throne over to one of his heirs. However, he believes in a Balance Between Good and Evil, and none of the three have what it takes to rule Hell properly, so he declares his reign will continue for another 10,000 years. Adrian and Cassius have each been waiting to rule Hell and are livid over this decision. Adrian proposes the idea to go to Earth and create a New Hell to rule over there. The two leave through the flaming gates of Hell, causing them to freeze over; no new souls will be able to enter, and their father starts to weaken and wither away. Nicky is sent to Earth to bring the two back, and is given an enchanted flask that will trap them in it if they drink from it.

On Earth, Adrian and Cassius possess mortals to tempt people to sin in order to condemn their souls for them to take. While relaxing with a meal, Adrian notices Nicky on Earth with a woman he is romancing, Valerie. Adrian mentally dominates Nicky to force him to make lewd remarks to her and give her the finger, driving her away. Nicky tells Adrian that he and Cassius have to come back because their father is dying, but Adrian doesn't care and makes Nicky walk in front of an oncoming van to kill him (since he's a son of Satan, he just respawns in Hell if he dies on Earth).

After Nicky confronts Cassius at a basketball game and traps him in the flask, Adrian possesses the chief of police and frames Nicky for a mass murder, and offers $50 million for his capture. With the entire city hunting Nicky, he's forced to go into hiding and dies to escape; back in Hell he learns his father has until midnight before he vanishes entirely. Two friends Nicky made on Earth sell him out to the chief of police and he goes with to a subway station where Nicky is supposed to meet with them, where he leaves the chief's body to await for Nicky in person. The two mug a homeless woman for some booze in a paper bag and offer Adrian a drink, and he realizes it's a trap — the paper bag contains the flask and Nicky has possessed one of the two. Adrian calls Nicky out and seizes the homeless woman, who is actually Valerie, and threatens to leap with her in front of a subway train unless Nicky drinks from the flask. Adrian does so but Nicky is able to get Valerie to safety, and he and Adrian are killed by the train.

Adrian returns to Hell alone, and it is revealed that Nicky is half-angel, and since he died sacrificing himself for someone else, he went to Heaven and meets his angel mother. Adrian realizes his father's attendants are acting suspiciously quiet and tortures one of them to reveal what they were trying to avoid bringing up: in Satan's weakened state, Adrian could seize the throne of Hell for himself. Adrian tosses his father (now consisting of a pair of arms holding a mouth) aside and sits down, growing a pair of horns. He raises the throne of Hell to Central Park, where a debaucherous party is going on. Adrian reveals that Hell is real and tells the partygoers they'll all be going there when they die, which will be in about fifteen minutes (midnight, when Satan will be dead and Adrian will assume full power).

Nicky returns to Earth, now able to tap into his angelic powers, and confronts Adrian. The two fight, culminating with Adrian calling for his demons to restrain Nicky while he forces him to drink from the flask. Nicky is pulled in but grabs Adrian and takes him in with them. Cassius is furious at both of them and an unseen fight ensues. Nicky seems to emerge from the flask, but as he kisses Valerie he reveals he's just Adrian in disguise, and he shapeshifts into a bat to fly around stalling the final moments until his ascension. Valerie motivates Nicky to escape the flask, and he pulls out a mysterious glowing orb his mother gave him from God. He smashes it on the ground and summons Ozzy Osborne, and Ozzy grabs Adrian in his bat form, bites his head off, and spits him into the flask, defeating him.

Is he a bastard?

As a son of Satan, Adrian is everything you'd expect. He tempts mortals to indulge in sin and possesses a cardinal to denounce God in front of his congregation. He enjoys tormenting damned souls, and in a deleted scene is seen doing so with Cassius by playing darts using the faces of sinners as their boards. When he raises the throne of Hell to Earth he reveals to the people present that he intends to kill them at midnight to claim their damned souls. He indulges in minor evil acts For the Evulz, like introducing a celebrity guest, Henry Winkler, to the party, and then summoning a swarm of bees to attack him. One of the things Cassius did while they were on Earth was lower the drinking age to 10, and as Adrian watches a drunken boy come out of a bar and puke in the gutter, he laughs to himself and muses "When an adult goes to Hell, that's terrific. But when a child goes... that's why I'm in this business."

Adrian also cares nothing about his family — he and Cassius both tormented Nicky for being weak and simple-minded, and he influences Nicky to force him to make disgusting sexual jokes to his love interest and give her the finger. While he did not directly intend to kill Satan by leaving Hell, he clearly doesn't care and refuses to go back when Nicky tells him what's happening. He also leaves Cassius stuck in the flask to rule his New Hell alone, and when assuming his father's throne he pushes his elderly grandfather Lucifer to the floor when he tries to stop him.

Is he magnificent?

Adrian is very charismatic thanks to a hammy performance by Rhys Ifans. He's witty, snarky, and delights in his wicked ways and enjoys the chaos he sows on Earth. In a deleted scene when he assumes the throne, Lucifer orders the demons of Hell to seize him, but then Adrian offers them a chance to go to Earth with him to claim the souls of those he's condemned, and they side with him. When the throne of Hell emerges in the Central Park party, Adrian congratulates them all on giving in to sin so readily and he's proud of them, before revealing Hell is very real and he'll be taking them there when he kills them at midnight.

It's repeatedly said Adrian is the smartest of the three sons, and it shows. While he and Cassius work together at first, most of the ideas are shown to come from Adrian, Cassius is Dumb Muscle. He initially didn't care Nicky was on Earth, but once Nicky imprisons Cassius in the flask, Adrian possesses the chief of police and frames Nicky for a mass shooting using edited footage of Scarface, and the promise of a huge cash reward for his capture turns the city against him and forces him to go into hiding. When Nicky's two friends apparently betray him and lead Adrian to meet him, they offer him a sip of the booze they stole from the homeless woman. Adrian notices one of the two is sweating profusely and the other isn't, and the booze they apparently stole was his Trademark Favorite Food, peppermint schnapps. He realizes this is a set-up and draws Nicky out of one of the two he's possessed, and seizes Valerie as a hostage. Then when he returns to Hell, he notices the demons seeing to his father are nervous and tortures them to find out how to claim his father's throne.

Mitigating factor

Sooo, here's where the snag comes in — the final "battle" between Adrian and Nicky. At first the two fight by proxy (Nicky conjures a squirrel; Adrian creates a snake to swallow it; Nicky turns the snake into flowers, etc), before Adrian gets fed up and fights Nicky directly, which leads into him punching Nicky onto a bed his mother conjured, and Adrian leaps after him and the two pillow fight. Not only do they pillow fight, but Nicky pummels Adrian with ease and tricks him into letting him sucker punch him, and then he calls for his demons to restrain Nicky. The best that can be said is Adrian keeps his cool even while doing so, and he looks about as threatening and dignified as you could expect under the circumstances, but that isn't saying very much. Then when Adrian is evading Nicky as a bat, he's powerless against Ozzy and puts up no resistance whatsoever as Ozzy grabs him and bites his head off. Ozzy's arrival to defeat Adrian is a literal act of God (the orb came from God and no one knew what it was, just that Nicky would know when the time was right to use it) and the moment is Played for Laughs, so take from that what you will.

Conclusion

Adrian is a son of Satan who decides to create a New Hell on Earth to rule, until he learns he can usurp his father directly and does so, temporarily becoming Satan himself.

Edited by DrakeClawfang on Jan 28th 2022 at 5:09:11 AM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#67950: Jan 28th 2022 at 5:10:20 PM

No to Adrian. You forgot about the part where he's last seen getting a Pineapple shoved up his ass. That's way too undignified for this trope, even disregarding his silly defeat.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jan 28th 2022 at 5:11:20 AM


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