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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#67901: Jan 27th 2022 at 9:31:41 PM

I support moving him to the general page as well if he's in multiple entries and his influence is felt across them.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#67902: Jan 27th 2022 at 9:56:06 PM

  • Clearcut: Arthur, an Indigenous activist who never reveals his tribe, lures tribal attorney Peter Maguire into accompanying him and kidnaps the head of a local mining company. Bringing them to the wilderness to see the damage the logging has done, Arthur puts them through grueling tests, eluding and even tricking and killing several law enforcement agents while testing Maguire's mettle the whole time. By the end, Arthur simply lets himself sink into the water, strongly implying he is Wisakedjak, a trickster spirit who will return one day.
  • Jonah Hex
    • Jonah Hex himself is a man who walks a solitary path with violence and death as his companions. Though decades, Hex is a bounty hunter who rarely fails to get his bounty an constantly traps those after him. In several such instances, Hex lures a man into helping him while planning to kill him, kills an opponent with a thrown sheriff star when he is out of bullets, helps a widow to find peace when she blames him for her misery by letting her sell him to bounty hunters thinking he will be hanged because it is revealed Hex hired them himself. Not above displays of compassion and humanity, Hex will occasionally refuse payment should his sense of justice demand it, and at his destined time to die, lets a two-bit impersonator perish in his stead. Fixing his face, Hex goes into the sunset with his rival and lover Tallulah Black to find peace at last.
    • Victor Sono, the Star Man, was an immigrant boy whose beloved father was murdered for sport by crooked cops. As fate would have it, the bystander whose gun he stole for justice was Jonah Hex, who saved him. Growing into a capable killer, Victor hunts down and murders corrupt and evil lawmen. Managing to give Hex the slip, Victor promises Hex can walk him into jail should Hex save him from other hunters before asking Hex to take him to one town so Victor can murder the corrupt sheriff. Slipping his ropes, he has Hex locked in a cell while hanging the sheriff for murdering innocents and proceeds to arrange Hex's freedom and to pay him Victor's bounty money as to make them even.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#67903: Jan 27th 2022 at 10:19:22 PM

Here's these two. I'll add them to the drafts tonight and then go in and add some pot holes later. I also already added a header.

  • P03, the Scrybe of Technology, is first introduced as the condescending and ungrateful "Stoat" that is content to allow Grimora and Magnificus to work to free them from Leshy's control. In truth an arrogant yet quirky robot, P03 uses its factory to dredge up a piece of the Old_Data and assume control of Inscryption to draw Luke into it own version of the game. Valuing mechanics over performance, P03 creates a series of meta-breaking Uber Bots to serve as creative and enthralling boss encounters all to district Luke while it works to connect to his Wi-Fi and access the internet. Masterminding the Great Transcendence, P03 sought to upload itself and Inscryption to the web to finally give itself true freedom and never fall under anyone's control again. Ambushed and beheaded by Leshy before its upload can finish, the ARG reveals P03 had the foresight to upload a copy of itself as a precaution and is shown to have survived the final deletion and ultimately win out in the end.
  • Magnificus, the Scrybe of Magicks, is first depicted as the one-eyed "Stunted Wolf" and the mastermind that set in motion the series of puzzles that allow Luke to overcome Leshy and free them all from their card prisons. A Plant Person with a long Wizard Beard made of leaves, Magnificus is a seer that foresaw Leshy's takeover and P03's Great Transcendence and took precautions that led to the end of both their plans. A calm and collected being on first glance, his dark side is shown in his tower as he challenges his disciples to horrific and painful tests to prove themselves worthy of being painted into cards for his deck. After Grimora initiates the deletion of Inscryption, Magnificus uses his sheer force of will to hold off his deletion and give Luke one final game before they both meet their makers and is finally deleted while struggling to shake hands in a final show of respect.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#67905: Jan 28th 2022 at 12:18:23 AM

Hey I just noticed that the Phineas and Ferb characters aren't on the Western Animation subpage.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#67906: Jan 28th 2022 at 12:19:49 AM

They are on Disney

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jan 28th 2022 at 12:19:56 PM

TotemGenitor Bye Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
DrakeClawfang Since: Apr, 2010
#67908: Jan 28th 2022 at 6:18:27 AM

Posting an EP with erazor's permission. I have not played FF14 myself but experiences its story through streams and YouTube; I have done my due diligence in researching the candidate to make sure they meet the criteria and there are no mitigating factors, but if I have overlooked something I welcome the additional information and will edit the EP as necessary.

What is the work?

The work is Final Fantasy XIV, an MMORPG.

Who is the character?

The character is Emet-Selch, a major antagonist and the Big Bad of the Shadowbringers expansion.

What do they do?

First, some lore on XIV's setting.

Long ago the Ancients were the dominant lifeform on the world of Etheirys, and were ruled by the fourteen members of the Convocation, which included Emet-Selch. When an apocalyptic event known as the Final Days threatened the world, the Ancients sacrificed half their number to conjure a god from prayer and aether, Zodiark, and by his power the world was spared. The planet had still been decimated, so the Ancients sacrificed another half their number to Zodiark to restore the planet's ability to sustain and support life. The plan then was to sacrifice the other lifeforms that existed on Etheirys to resurrect the Ancients that had previously been sacrificed and restore their civilization to its state before the Final Days. However, some of the Ancients believed their time had passed and the world should be left to the new races that would evolve. This splinter faction sacrificed themselves to summon another primal that would be Zodiark's counterpart, Hydaelyn. Hydaelyn shattered Zodiark into fragments, but since Zodiark was the will of the world, she split Etheirys itself as well. There came to be fourteen worlds: "The Source", the original world; and thirteen "shards". Emet-Selch was one of three Ancients to survive this sundering and they formed the Ascians to reform the Convocation and work towards causing "Calamities" on the Source and its shards. By these Calamities the shards would be rejoined to the Source and Zodiark reformed, and when he was fully restored they would sacrifice the inhabitants of the worlds to restore the Ancients.

Among the Ascians, Emet-Selch preferred to work in subtle ways from the shadows. Over the years he took on human guises to build great civilizations, and then would let them fall or cause their fall directly, in the name of causing a Calamity. Several decades before the start of XIV, he took the form of a man named Solus Gaius, an inhabitant of a nation called Garlemald on the Source. Solus distinguished himself as a legatus in the military and pioneered advances in Magitek that turned the Garleans into a great military power. Eventually he was declared ruler of Garlemald by popular opinion and reformed the nation as the Garlean Empire. Under Emperor Solus' reign, the Garleans began a campaign to rule the world. After several decades of warfare with other nations, Solus died without naming an heir. The Empire descended into civil war over the succession crisis, and eventually Solus' grandson Varis took the throne. Though Solus was dead, as an Ascian Emet-Selch was immortal and he had merely abandoned his physical vessel. Emet-Selch revealed his true nature to Varis and continued secretly controlling the Garlean Empire from behind the scenes while manipulating Varis into being an unwitting and unwilling Puppet King.

Emet-Selch revealed the Ascians' goal of reuniting the sundered worlds and Varis shared in his vision even while rejecting the Ascians themselves. Under Varis' orders, the Garleans began working on a bio-weapon called the Black Rose. Emet-Selch saw potential in the weapon and left Varis to his devices. During the events of Shadowbringers, the Warrior of Light was summoned to The First, one of the shards of The Source that had previously been decimated by a Flood of Light. The Warrior of Light was summoned by the Crystal Exarch to fight monsters of Light called Sin Eaters. Over the course of the expansion, it is revealed that the Crystal Exarch comes from an alternate future where the Garleans unleashed the Black Rose, and in tandem with the Sin Eaters ravaging the First, it created a reaction of Light that amplified Black Rose's potency to the point of causing a Calamity that killed many inhabitants of the Source. The Crystal Exarch had travelled back in time to prevent this by destroying the Sin Eaters and saving the First from the Light. Whomever kills a Sin Eater absorbs their Light and becomes a Sin Eater themselves, but the Warrior of Light was able to resist the transformation and slew many Sin Eaters and their leaders, the Lightwardens.

Watching all of this unfold, Emet-Selch was upset that the heroes were threatening his plans for a Calamity, but he saw something in the Warrior's soul and believed there may be an alternative to bloodshed. He came before the Warrior and their allies, the Scions of the Seventh Dawn, and revealed himself as an Ascian. He claimed he was not there to fight but to find common ground, and proposed they could be allies. The Scions did not trust him one bit and told him so, but Emet-Selch insisted he was sincere and told them he only wished to observe them as they hunted the Sin Eaters, and would offer them assistance if they wished. He continued to appear to them to speak to them and even accompanied them on their travels for brief periods. When one of the Scions, Y'shtola, used an ancient teleportation spell that cast her into the lifestream, the others assumed her lost for dead since it had taken a colossal effort to revive her the last time this happened, but Emet-Selch saved her himself. The Warrior and the Scions continued their adventure, and Emet-Selch gradually revealed to them the truth of Hydaelyn, Zodiark, and the world's sunduring. He urged them to realize that the Ascians' goal was to restore their world and their fallen brethren, and the chaos and destruction they sowed was all in service to the greater good of recreating the paradise they had lost.

When the Warrior killed the final Lightwarden and was on the cusp of finally succumbing to the Light, the Crystal Exarch began absorbing the Light into himself with the intent to take it into the Void and sacrifice himself to save the First. However, Emet-Selch interrupted him by (non-fatally) shooting hi, in the back. He was disappointed in the group and had decided they were not worth taking as allies after all, but abducted the Crystal Exarch as a "consolation prize" since his knowledge of the future could be useful, and then invited the Warrior to come to his abode to complete their transformation into a Sin Eater in private. At Emet-Selch's lair, the group found a recreation of Amaurot, capital city of the Ancients, populated by facsimiles of its inhabitants. After exploring the city, they came face to face with Emet-Selch. Emet-Selch denounced the group's efforts and invited them into another recreation of Amaurot, this one during the Final Days. The group fought their way through horrendous monsters the apocalypse unleashed and confronted Emet-Selch again. Eventually the Warrior of Light merged with the spirit of Ardbert, their counterpart on the First, giving them the strength to stand and challenge Emet-Selch. Using the power of the Light they had absorbed, the Warrior killed Emet-Selch. He faded away asking the Warrior to "remember that we once lived."

Though he was dead, Emet-Selch's role in the story was not over. Later story quests brought the Warrior into conflict with another Convocation member, Elidibus, and they returned to the recreation of Amaurot. A shade of one of the Ancients, Hythlodaeus, was a friend of Emet-Selch, and he explained that the members of the Convocation had crystals they infused with their memories. The 14th member of the Convocation, Azem, had vacated their seat, so they were not entitled to such a crystal, but Emet-Selch was a friend of Azem and created a crystal for them in secret. Hythlodaeus revealed that the Warrior bore Azem's soul, and Azem was their past identity before the sundering - with this it becomes apparent that Emet-Selch had recognized their soul as that of his old friend and this is why he had tried to convince them to ally with him. Hythlodaeus gave the Warrior Azem's crystal that Emet-Selch had left behind for them to find, and during their confrontation with Elidibus they used the crystal to summon allies to aid them. When Elidibus cast the group into the Void, the spirit of Emet-Selch appeared and summoned them back, then departed with a nonchalant wave.

During the events of Endwalker, the Ascian Fandaniel forced the Warrior to destroy Zodiark, and the Final Days began again. The Warrior travelled back in time to learn more about the original Final Days on Etheirys, and met the Ancient forms of Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus. To make a long story short, it is revealed that a being called Meteion was responsible for the Final Days, and memory of her existence was erased from Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus' minds while Meteion fled the planet. ​At the end of the game when the Warrior goes to face Meteion at the edge of the universe, the Scions are forced to sacrifice themselves to create a path deeper into her lair. Alone against Meteion, the Warrior used Azem's crystal to summon the spirits of Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus to them. Emet-Selch was indignant but willing to help the Warrior defeat Meteion to save the world, and the two used their magics to stabilize the space they were in, freeing the spirits of the Scions. The two then began to fade away, accepting a permanent death at last. As he did, Emet-Selch questioned the Warrior about all the areas of the Source and its shards that they hadn't visited yet, and told them they owed it to themselves to do so and they could consider it their duty as Azem.

Is he a bastard?

Emet-Selch is both directly and indirectly responsible for countless catastrophes throughout history on multiple worlds. During the game's events, he is responsible for the rise of the Garlean Empire and their wars on other nations, and claims to have staged the death of his human form Solus specifically to cause a civil war with the ensuing succession crisis from not naming an heir. In the alternate timeline the Crystal Exarch came from, the Source suffered mass death from the Black Rose that Emet-Selch knowingly made worse with the Light of the First, and while the Warrior of Light stopped this plan, it is made clear this is how events would have played out if they hadn't. He also directed other Ascians to create the Flood of Light that had decimated the First originally and killed many of its people.

He is contemptuous of the humanoids that populate the Source and its shards nearly to the point of Fantastic Racism. He declares them to be weak-minded, feeble, hollow mockeries of the Ancients, unworthy of inheriting the world they left behind. In his eyes, by opposing the Ascians to protect civilization as it exists now, people like the Scions only give rise to further death and conflict, which makes them ignorant and selfish. He is well-aware that he is a Hypocrite in these goals and beliefs — both he and the Scions point out that he is trying to destroy their civilization for the sake of restoring his own, something they can understand and sympathize with, and they may even do the same in his place. However, he is adamant that he is in the right regardless because they are fragmented, imperfect creatures, pale imitations of "real" life.

He often makes mocking, Trollish remarks, sometimes as lighthearted jokes but other times more personally cutting, such as taunting Varis that the founding father of the Garlean Empire was an Ascian, and the Empire was founded on a lie and only exists as a tool for the Ascians to use for their plans. When the Warrior of Light begins to be overwhelmed by the Light they have absorbed, Emet-Selch claims he sincerely pities them, since they will transform into a Sin Eater and will either kill or be killed by their friends. However, he also laughs at the idea of them becoming a monster that preys on the innocents they tried to defend, and when they meet later in Amaurot he sneers at their attempts to resist the transformation and urges them to give up and give in.

All of that being said, simply calling Emet-Selch "evil" isn't fair — he is firmly a Well-Intentioned Extremist. He is motivated by love and grief for the loss of his race, and all that he does is to restore them. The shade of Hythlodaeus the Warrior meets in Amaurot tells them that Emet-Selch is a stalwart champion of Zodiark's will and has carried the burden of restoring the Ancients for millennia. In his own words, he has had thousands of mortal lives where he has lived, loved, had friends and families, and grown old and "died", and time and again he found civilization to be a shadow of the world he lost. When the player meets Emet-Selch as an Ancient in Endwalker, he is a Jerk with a Heart of Gold: he's a bit of a grouch with an arrogant streak, but he's regarded highly by the Ancients and has several friends who he genuinely gets along with and could be considered virtuous in their own right. Anecdotally, Emet-Selch is often annoyed by the shenanigans they rope him into, but he never abandons them or turns his back on them, he'll help them and complain about doing so.

Is he magnificent?

Emet-Selch is an immortal who excels at playing the Long Game. He has plans spanning centuries and across worlds, and will take advantage of opportunities as he notices them. He has created sprawling empires (at least two the player knows about, the Allagan Empire and the Garlean Empire) for the purposes of sowing strife and chaos, and spent decades at a time living as a human to carry on the plans of the Ascians. He repeatedly shows himself to be intelligent and insightful, such as when he figures out the Crystal Exarch's true identity in secret by piecing together clues, but keeps it to himself since he still wants to find out what his goal is. He has no issue with letting the Scions destroy the Sin Eaters, even though it ruins his plans to cause a rejoining with the First, because he has eternity to find another way to bring about a rejoining, and if the Scions turn out to be too much trouble he'll just kill them.

He is very charismatic and charming, inserting hamminess, snark, or both, into almost everything he says, and is an eloquent speaker. On one occasion when he meets with the Scions, Y'shtola accuses him of "plotting something", and he quips "every minute of every day." When traveling with the Warrior and the Scions he is willing to engage them in conversation and help them if he feels like it, including reviving Y'shtola from the lifestream when otherwise she surely would have been lost and as good as dead. He is upfront with doing this as a show of good faith to prove he has no nefarious intentions, and before then he offers the group condolences on her seeming demise, as he knows it isn't easy to lose a loved one.

Emet-Selch's goal throughout Shadowbringers is to gauge the potential of the Warrior and the Scions to see if they're worth taking on as allies, and trying to convince them to join him by telling them lost secrets of Hydaelyn and Zodiark, enlightening them to the true state of the world and explaining that his goals are not as sinister as they assume. He does so partially because he recognizes their potential as allies, and also because he has identified the Warrior as the reincarnation of Azem and wishes to bring his old friend back into the fold. He's genuinely disappointed when the Warrior and the Scions fail to live up to his expectations, and is both saddened and annoyed that he's wasted his time with them.

After his defeat he has a Heel–Face Turn and aids the Warrior first against Elidibus and then against Meteion. As he goes to his final death in Endwalker, he accepts that the cause he fought for is lost and the civilization he cherished will never return, but he still entrusts the legacy of the world to the Warrior and the Scions, and fades away with a smile.

Mitigating factors

Emet-Selch is very arrogant, but in my humble opinion not to the extent one could consider him smug or see his arrogance as a weakness. His perceived superiority over others is grounded in fact — the civilization he knew was a utopia where none wanted for anything, as an unsundered Ascian he is an immortal with far more power than most, and even among the Ancients he was considered exceptionally powerful. He underestimated the power of the Warrior and the Scions, which caused him to decide not to ally with them and led to his death when they opposed him. However, being defeated is not in itself disqualifying, and he does acknowledge that they're quite more impressive than most mortals, just not enough that he thinks it worth the effort to win them over to his side anymore. Though they kill him, it is a herculean effort requiring the Scions, the Warrior of Light, other warriors (other player characters that join in the battle), and overwhelming him with the concentrated Light gathered of every Sin Eater the Warrior killed. Thus when looking at the facts, Emet-Selch's arrogance is perfectly justified.

During the final battle in Shadowbringers, he shows shades of a Villainous Breakdown. When the Warrior merges with Ardbert and stands with new strength, Emet-Selch briefly sees them in their Ancient form and is stunned and exclaims "No, it can't be!" (timestamp 16:40). Then when G'raha Tia arrives and summons allies to aid the Warrior, he angrily curses "damn you all!" Upon being defeated (timestamp 20:30) he slips into denial and refuses to accept that all he has strived for will be lost. However, when he's actually killed and fades away while in his human form, he calmly and sadly asks the Warrior to "remember us. Remember that we once lived." When his spirit appears in Endwalker (timestamp 16:40), he accepts his final death and goes to it peacefully, and in the process he concedes that the Warrior bested him and gives them final words of encouragement. I would not consider his behavior in Shadowbringers a true Villainous Breakdown, but even if it was, I feel it's negated by his showing in Endwalker, where he is a Graceful Loser who Goes Out With A Smile

Conclusion

Emet-Selch spends thousands of years manipulating civilizations to prosperity and ruination as necessary to create cataclysms in the name of resurrecting his race and returning the world to the utopia it was once.

Edited by DrakeClawfang on Aug 19th 2023 at 9:57:26 AM

YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#67909: Jan 28th 2022 at 6:34:10 AM

Sure to Ernet-Selch.

Edited by YobabyColin on Jan 28th 2022 at 9:34:30 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#67910: Jan 28th 2022 at 6:38:55 AM

[tup]Ernet-Selch

Would Gauis count. I heard he was quite the bad guy.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DrakeClawfang Since: Apr, 2010
#67911: Jan 28th 2022 at 6:46:34 AM

I'm not entirely sure. I've not researched him myself yet, but from what I know he does seem to be a cunning foe and one with a sense of morals and decency. On the other hand he might be an Unwitting Pawn for Lahabrea (I've not looked into the ARR storyline much, so I say might)

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#67912: Jan 28th 2022 at 8:44:18 AM

[tup] to Ernet-Selch

Hey guys so I think I have a candidate worth discussing from a game I finished played. The game in question is Mortal Shell so lets talk about it

What’s The Work?

Mortal Shell is a 2020 Indie Souls-like RPG developed by Cold Symmetry. It takes place in a medieval Dark Fantasy setting called Fallgrim where you are a wraith known as the Foundling who can possess one of 4 armor types that serve as your body, each one providing a different play-style. Now upon arriving in Fallgrim you are task with collect three glands for the Old Prisoner, who also happens to be the candidate I’ll be discussing.

Who Is He? What Has He Done?

The Old Prisoner is an old and powerful being whose imprisoned in the Fallgrim tower until The Foundling removes his Tarnished Seal. The Old Prisoner would then task the Foundling to go to three temples to find the Glands that are there where The Old Prisoner would reward The Foundling for each gland they give him.

When The Foundling delivers The Old Prisoner the last gland, The Old Prisoner reveals that he was to use the Glands to escape the Crapsack World that is Fallgrim and Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence while thanking the Foundling for there efforts in retrieving the three Glands for him.

However when The Old Prisoner tries using the three Glands to ascend, he fails and he realizes that the Foundling is the one meant to ascend not him. Deciding that if he cant ascend no one can, The Old Prisoner becomes the Final Boss, The Unchained, and battles the Foundling where he tries to kill them.

After a long grueling battle The Foundling is able to defeat The Old Prisoner, where he accepts his fate, merely asking the Foundling on what whether they plan on killing or sparing him. Should The Foundling chose the former they would extract the Gland from the Old Prisoner and use it to ascend where they end back in Fallgrim this time on New Game +.

Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?

As an ancient and powerful being, The Old Prisoner is quite intelligent having great knowledge about everything in the world of Fallgrim and is cunning in that he is able to manipulate The Foundling into doing his bidding and retrieve all three glands for him in his plan to use him to ascend.

The only reason why The Old Prisoner’s plan failed in the end had nothing to do with any missteps of his plan, but that The Chosen One that was meant to ascend was The Foundling themselves, and even then he doesn’t have a breakdown, merely going into Tranquil Fury mode and give The Foundling their toughest battle yet.

What’s The Competition Like?

The Old Prisoner is arguably the most intelligent, deceitful, and devious character in the whole game with other enemies not showing personality other than attack the Player Character, while other NPCs are not bastards enough to qualify, so yeah The Old Prisoner wins the competition here

Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?

Well The Old Prisoner is a prisoner for a crimes he committed in the past while not showing any regret for committing them, has no problem manipulating the Player Character into putting themselves in harms way for his own selfish goals, and tries to kill them upon realizing they are meant to ascend not him, so yeah I’d say he’s enough of a bastard to be considered.

That said The Old Prisoner himself never goes beyond standard villainy, never committing any cruel nor deplorable acts onscreen nor does he show himself to be sadistic, did thank the Foundling for retrieve the Glands before attempting to ascend and one dialog reveals that one of the shell the Foundling was inhabiting (Solomon) use to been his brother which he was fond of and admits to missing him, so yeah not too much of a bastard.

Final Verdict?

I’ll leave it to you guys to decide.

Edited by G-Editor on Jan 28th 2022 at 11:44:37 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#67914: Jan 28th 2022 at 8:51:01 AM

[tup] to the Old prisoner and Emet

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#67915: Jan 28th 2022 at 8:52:41 AM

Will read Emet later, but question on the prisoner, what happens if you spare him?

Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 28th 2022 at 11:52:56 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#67916: Jan 28th 2022 at 8:53:58 AM

@jjjj2 If you spare The Old Prisoner you just teleport back to Fallgrim tower where you can explore the world more while having the option to battle the prisoner again

Edited by G-Editor on Jan 28th 2022 at 11:58:06 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#67917: Jan 28th 2022 at 9:08:54 AM

Ahh good ol' But Thou Must!... [tup] The Prisoner.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#67918: Jan 28th 2022 at 9:13:51 AM

[tup]prisoner.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ya-Dun-Goofed Since: Jan, 2022
#67920: Jan 28th 2022 at 9:35:36 AM

Hey I'm curious, has Doctor Doom from Ultimate Spiderman and Avengers Assemble been discussed?

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
DrakeClawfang Since: Apr, 2010
#67923: Jan 28th 2022 at 10:03:16 AM

A question - can a villain from a comedy film be considered as long as the villain themselves is treated as a serious threat?

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#67924: Jan 28th 2022 at 10:06:47 AM

Yes to the Prisoner and Emet-Selch

We're a lot more lenient on comedies than we are on CM - really the concern is less the "seriousness" of the threat and more about making sure they're not the victim of slapstick or anything like that. Basically, they should still be skilled and dignified, but "seriousness" is much less of a factor

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jan 28th 2022 at 1:25:58 PM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#67925: Jan 28th 2022 at 10:24:51 AM

Fantastic Racism but it's because he wants to save his dying race. Yeah I'd say that's fine, [tup]Emet-Selch.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

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