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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#66201: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:28:12 PM

I'll read the EPs shortly, but cut Kazuma.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#66202: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:29:54 PM

[tdown] to Oliver, may the SOB have experienced some Karma Houdini Warranty when his next scheme began. Just seeing that creep get suggested just makes my skin crawl. As you say, it's impossible to tell how much of his sympathetic backstory is true and in this day and age, I don't like the idea of voting for far-right people who are willing to kill scores of innocents for the sake of their viewpoints.

[tup] to The Hunter.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#66203: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:30:09 PM

Yes to Jared, Copellius, Oliver, and skekMal.

Cut Dr. Mabuse and Kazuma.

Edited by Bullman on Jan 8th 2022 at 2:30:44 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#66204: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:34:11 PM

Melinda let's chill out a bit on the reasoning. Keep it civil.

Octoya Since: Jul, 2014
#66205: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:35:50 PM

@Taylor Hyuuga To be fair I think the sentence was trying to say that Kazuma respected Barok after Barok accepted what his brother became, the pronoun usage just makes it confusing.

@43110 As to whether he fits, I was considering proposing a different writeup, but I'm not so sure now that I've refreshed myself on the trope and the examples in it. I'm just not sure Kazuma is enough of a Bastard to count, and he gets a lot of moments where his clouded judgment gets in the way. He is very clever and more ruthless than the heroes as a rival, but he also has very clear moral standards and blind spots. So yeah, just cutting is fine with me!

Edited by Octoya on Jan 8th 2022 at 12:36:55 PM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#66206: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:36:01 PM

Sure to Oliver.

Oh, and an absolute ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuck yes to skekMal, awesome work there!

Although it bears mention that the character skekMal makes the arrangement is skekSil, the Chamberlain, (Hey, our other Skeksis keeper!) not skekSo, who is the Emperor. Probably just a typo in the EP.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Jan 8th 2022 at 12:39:19 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#66207: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:36:59 PM

Octoya honestly if you go to the effort of the post you'll get to pick how the writeup looks, so no worries there!

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#66208: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:37:04 PM

@Melinda I don’t want to start a war here, but he sounds like a typical far-left anarchist upset at the government for wronging him.

Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Jan 8th 2022 at 3:37:19 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#66209: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:39:00 PM

Earnestly let's maybe just not tell people that seeing their EP makes our skin crawl. We've politely downvoted horrendous Complete Monsters before, a vote and civil explanation is all that's needed.

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#66210: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:40:34 PM

Basically, assume and act in good faith.

TaylorHyuuga from Rokkenjima Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
#66211: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:40:58 PM

@Octoya Okay yeah I can see that, but he still isn't shown having a hatred against the English, just van Zieks himself. And it is very confusing regardless, particularly since Kazuma never truly sees van Zieks as a mentor.

<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#66212: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:44:40 PM

Also since y'all both seem quite elucidated on what merits constitute this trope—and Taylor you've done a number of great EPs already—may I ask how the rest of the Ace Attorney tree looks? Most of us are unfamiliar and have mostly gone in good faith when some of the posts were hard to understand/follow.

TaylorHyuuga from Rokkenjima Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
#66213: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:45:46 PM

Can do, I'll look them over

<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#66214: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:46:03 PM

Thank you.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Octoya Since: Jul, 2014
#66215: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:46:08 PM

Oh yeah I mentioned that too earlier—there isn't that level of general disdain. And while he was apprenticed to Barok for three months, calling him a "mentor" is probably a stretch, yes.

Probably gonna have to ultimately say no on revising a writeup for Kazuma, but I will check the other examples—though note that there's some games I haven't played and can't weigh in on.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#66216: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:47:50 PM

BTW—and I already told 43110 I was doing this, but just to let everyone else know—I folderized Magnificent Bastard Tabletop Games and played with the potholes for the Warhammer stuff (mainly the 40000).

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#66217: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:48:10 PM

I just got back online to see what was going on, uh Cut Kazuma I guess.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#66218: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:49:41 PM

Thanks folks and all good as we discussed, ACW, thanks again!

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#66219: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:52:19 PM

Maybe I did get too vehement about Oliver. I apologize for the skin crawling comment. lts just that, I've never liked how terrorists aren't automatically disqualified and I like homegrown terrorists even less. I just feel like giving them a Magnificent Bastard vote has just a bit of Do Not Do This Cool Thing for anyone reading about said characters and their crimes. It's probably paranoid, but I can't help but worry about it.

Also, I called him far-right instead of far-left because that was how a review of the movie I read described him.

Work

Batman (1966) is a campy superhero show from the sixties following Batman, Robin (and in the last season Batgirl) going up against Large Ham super villains who always seem to get released from jail within a few weeks or months no matter what they do, although there are also occasional darker and dramatic episodes. Although there is a lot of Negative Continuity, most of the most frequently recurring villains are either too stupid, too cowardly, or too nasty in at least one episode, which is why I won't be doing EP's for most of the great villains of the show (Catwoman, King, Tut, Penguin, and Joker, although I'm uncdecided about Riddler) in the 2-5 EP's I have planned.

Who is Minerva

Minvera, played by Zsa Zsa Gabor, is a spa owner who appears in the series finale. While most villains in the show make no secret about their criminal nature to the public, Minerva poses as a legitimatite businessperson, stealing valuable information from her customers.

What does she do?

At the beginning of the finale, Minerva has been in business for some time and the police commissioner and chief like to visit her spa to unwind after a hard case. She has somehow gotten her hands on a device called the Deepest Secret Extractor and uses it to pick the minds of millionaire customers attracted by her good reputation while seemingly applying health treatments like rubbing jelly on their heads. Minerva uses the invention to find out where they hide their valuables and the combinations for their safes and such. When Bruce Wayne (Batman's millionaire alter ego) doesn't give her an opportunity to do this to him, she has her staff steal his watch from the locker room to lure him back later on (with her convincing him to have a complimentary treatment when he comes back).

She catches Batman and Robin snooping around and her men over power them and put them in one of her devices to try and boil them in oil. Minerva initially thinks that they have been killed (they really escaped) but still decides to pull one more heist and skip town while asking a local fence to move the non-cash loot she already has. When Batman and Robin confront her about the attempt on their lives, she claims that it was all a horrible accident caused by a machine malfunction and she's relieved their all right, with the police commissioner believing her.

When she realizes her latest mark (an undercover Alfred the butler) is part of a sting operation, she puts him and Batgirl (who's showed up to stop her) in the sam device Batman and Robin were almost killed in. Batman and Robin show up to rescued Batgirl and Alfred and then fight Minerva's goons. Minerva slips away and makes a run for it during the fight (normally female villains in the show just watch from the sideline and then give up without a fight, so that puts her ahead) only to run into the police, who caught her fence trying to dispose of the goods, at which point she sold her out. Minerva calmly drapes a fur over herself and says that she'll turn the local prison into a magnificent spa before letting the police lead hr to a bpaddy wagon, arm in arm.

Magnificent

She keeps a lower profile than most villains. She has a good scheme. She does a good job of playing innocent and bluffing when confronted (although the main heroes aren't fooled). She's fairly nice to her gang. She knows not to push her luck too much. She takes being arrested with great style and grace.

Bitch

She's a thief who is willing to pu the heroes in a horrible death trap, although pretty much every villain in the show does the same.

Mitigating factors

There's some Cut Lex Luthor a Check considerations regarding the Deepest Secret Extractor although, again, that doesn't make her unique among the villains.

P.S. Other characters I'm considering for today if I have time from that show are the Riddler, Shame, Ma Parker, and the Bookworm.

Edited by Melinda on Jan 8th 2022 at 12:56:18 PM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#66220: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:56:08 PM

Sure to the Hunter, cut Kazuma

Yeah not gonna start an argument over this, but put simply Oliver is never given any genuine far-right ideological discussions or what exactly his motive is (kind of the whole point of his character is to be mysterious), but the few glimpses we do get absolutely amount to just "the government is shit and needs to burn even if innocents are caught in the crossfire", it's a heinous mindset but it isn't like he's a stand-in for some white nationalist or something.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#66221: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:56:30 PM

Sure to Minevera.

Edited by YobabyColin on Jan 8th 2022 at 3:56:46 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#66222: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:58:36 PM

Okay yes to your candidate Melinda but...

Maybe I did get too vehement about Oliver. I apologize for the skin crawling comment. lts just that, I've never liked how terrorists aren't automatically disqualified and I like homegrown terrorists even less. I just feel like giving them a Magnificent Bastard vote has just a bit of Do Not Do This Cool Thing for anyone reading about said characters and their crimes. It's probably paranoid, but I can't help but worry about it.

You're digging deeper with the Unfortunate Implications to your prior statement here, just "I apologize for the skin crawling comment" was what was needed, continuing to act like there's red flags being raised by the person who posted this is extremely uncomfortable and I wish you wouldn't try to defend doing so tbh.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#66223: Jan 8th 2022 at 12:59:36 PM

[tup]Oliver, The Hunter, Minerva.

Agree that the candidate seems like a standard anti-government terrorist, with any implications being Fridge Logic.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#66225: Jan 8th 2022 at 1:04:44 PM

Yes to Minerva.

I think all of us here have critical thinking skills, we can (hopefully) see the difference between "Hey, this villain has some mighty cool plotting and sympathetic traits/good points" and "Hey, this guy is awesome, I should go commit terrorist acts myself!"

And even with Oliver, the way Rav describes him is what I expected— he's not the sort of villain the film will deliberately position as a one-to-one parallel with any specific political group— his political inclinations seem to stop at "I hate the government and I'm willing to kill to see it go down."

I'll leave it at that to avoid a pile-on, (And hopefully, we can all consider this an innocent mistake and not dive down Melinda's throat) but this kind of "If we upvote this candidate, we're supporting their views!" rhetoric has shown up on this thread before and I think we can all agree it does more harm than good.


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