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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#66077: Jan 6th 2022 at 2:21:45 PM

For explanation:

In canon, the last time we see Azula, she has fully recovered and is running a scheme to push Zuko into being the Firelord she wants him to be, having resolved her mental issues. She finishes very strong and escapes completely free and clear.

[up] Can you not do that for a good faith question

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 6th 2022 at 2:22:17 AM

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#66078: Jan 6th 2022 at 2:25:21 PM

We took into account the Smoke and Shadow sequel comic, where she recovers.

Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Jan 6th 2022 at 5:25:32 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#66079: Jan 6th 2022 at 2:25:45 PM

Honestly you could probably make a case for a couple of characters their from both the Yeerks and anadiltes.

A somewhat grey morality helps here since unlike most vs the empire stories. Both sides have genunily morally grey characters.

Edited by miraculous on Jan 6th 2022 at 2:26:54 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Cring1 Since: Sep, 2021
#66080: Jan 6th 2022 at 2:52:19 PM

I could have found a candidate from literature (also sorry for not writing the draft for Ulysses in The Divine Comedy).

The work

The Tragedy of Man (original title Az ember tragediaja) is a Hungarian play written by 19th century poet Imre Madach. We only have a trope page for the animated version. The plot revolves around the fall of Adam and Eve, who are led through the various ages of mankind by Lucifer. And guess who is the candidate.

The candidate

The play starts with the Creation and the archangels singing God's glory, while Lucifer (who proclaims himself "the spirit of negation") decries it and states that mankind will inevitably try to emulate it, replying to God's rebuffs every time. Despite being cast out of Heaven, he still obtains from God the cursing of the Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of Immortality. From that, he corrupts Adam and Eve with the usual trick, ensuring they are expelled from Eden.

Playing on Adam's pride and ambition, Lucifer leads him through a series of dreams taking place in different points of history, with Adam portraying a leading role while Lucifer usually acts as his confidant. True to his Hegelian nickname, Lucifer brings up grandiose scenarios (the building of Pyramids, the glory of Rome, the Scientific Revolution and so on) only to bring them to their inevitable decadence, making Adam so desperate that only Eve's arrival in the last part of each scene gives the man some hope.

It should be noted that Lucifer hardly acts directly in the scenes, instead using his own cynicism about human action to anticipate each downfall, showing to have a consistent point about the inequality and suffering that plague history, and placing Adam in situations where degradation can be more evident than progress. He also manages to keep his nature hidden from Adam until the end of each scene while at the same time keeping close to him under different guises.

The last part of the dream is a bleak future with a dying sun and a new ice age. A desperate Adam wakes up and decides to commit suicide in order to spare his descendants the suffering he has witnessed. Only Eve manages to stop Lucifer's plan at the last moment, joyfully telling Adam she's pregnant and giving him hope again.

Adam surrenders to God while Lucifer faces the divine curse with a dignified silence, while God declares that mankind's fate is "to strive on, and have faith". So much for consolation.

Intelligence and charm

As stated above, Lucifer is extremely intelligent, able to woad through millennia of human history and nitpicking the moments that best serve his cause. At the same time, he's always well spoken, able to go from deep monologues to witty one-liners — when Eve starts wondering why should God punish them after creating them, he quips "Well, the first philosopher has appear'd".

Heinousness and competition

Make no mistake, Lucifer still wants Adam to give up hope and doesn't care when the latter is about to kill himself. However, he's more interested in showing Adam what kind of mistakes human being could do rather than in pushing him to commit them.

At the same time, also due to Madach's romantic views, God isn't exactly the hope bringer of Paradise Lost. Here God isn't shown again until the very end (Eve is the real hope bringer) and is more interested in Adam's newfound humility than the future of mankind. So Lucifer is a villain for sure, but the competition isn't particularly appealing.

Conclusion

I think he qualifies.

Edited by Cring1 on Jan 6th 2022 at 2:53:05 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#66081: Jan 6th 2022 at 2:58:46 PM

Yes there. But I'm gonna be clear on something...

Write up the people you propose. Within a reasonable timeframe. It's not fair to the thread otherwise.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#66082: Jan 6th 2022 at 3:00:38 PM

[tup]Lucifer

I think I read an article about this play a couple of years back...

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
RyanPuffs She/Her from Big Bill Hell's Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
She/Her
#66084: Jan 6th 2022 at 3:09:11 PM

[tup] for Lucifer

Profile picture by @BoxNazrin on Bluesky. Give her a follow!
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#66085: Jan 6th 2022 at 3:21:22 PM

[tup]Lucifer.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Idisagree Since: Jun, 2011
#66088: Jan 6th 2022 at 3:29:52 PM

[tup] to both another vampire named Max and another Lucifer. Both are creating a bit of a pattern as mentioned before.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#66092: Jan 6th 2022 at 6:33:16 PM

@J, if you wanna do Ellimist then you can have him. I'll reserve Visser One though as I've already started on her EP.

[tup]Lucifer

Edited by Snowy66 on Jan 6th 2022 at 6:34:34 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#66093: Jan 6th 2022 at 6:40:03 PM

No you can have him Snowy, I only read some of the books when I was younger, he just seemed like he'd be a good candidate based of his character page and some facts I read on the official wiki.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#66094: Jan 6th 2022 at 7:07:19 PM

Aight cool. Yeah I’ve got some other EPs to get through before the Animorph stuff. But yeah Ellimist was one of the ones that seemed promising.

magnumtropus Since: Aug, 2020
#66095: Jan 6th 2022 at 7:17:52 PM

Has anyone watched Sleight, and does anyone think that Angelo (or anyone in the film) might be eligible for MB or CM? I'd love to do the EP myself, but I don't really have any means to access the film at the moment

Edited by magnumtropus on Jan 6th 2022 at 7:18:54 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#66096: Jan 6th 2022 at 7:55:37 PM

Right off the bat the tropes page isn't looking good for Angelo for MB, can't speak for CM and don't know if anyone else in the work is viable.

Yes to Lucifer but let me make it quite clear I'd like the writeup done within a week's timeframe.

Siegfried1337 Calabash. from The Eastern Luminant Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
Calabash.
#66097: Jan 6th 2022 at 7:59:23 PM

I've been looking over the MB to-do lists... And some of the tropers who have their to-do lists might be inactive. What to do?

Eh, good enough.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#66098: Jan 6th 2022 at 8:00:26 PM

Those are informal and mostly work as reminders for people intending to get to stuff. Maybe PM them but we've made it quite clear folks are to handle it in good grace if someone covers something they forget about, just like I did with the recently posted Echidna.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#66099: Jan 6th 2022 at 8:17:35 PM

Hey-o, our boy Riley dropped a sequel fic to a fic I’ve covered before here, Destinies of Remnant. I know I’m probably the only one who reads it, but just to be safe, does anyone mind if I cover the latest chapter early (since it’s an anthology and the first chapter won’t effect any others)? It’s got an old friend of ours and someone I genuinely did not expect to ever cover here - I say that as someone with two different Adam Taurus’s, for perspective.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jan 6th 2022 at 11:20:27 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance

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