During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Harold and Robot Santa. Love those episodes. Get better Lighty.
I'm actually considering doing an effortpost on Sherlock Holmes/Herlock Sholmes from The Great Ace Attorney as despite his eccentricies, and seeming dumbass behaviour it's more a front to be a mentor to Ryunosuke as a Trickster Mentor basically in the way Phoenix Wright was to Apollo Justice in... well, Apollo Justice. Shu Takumi's take on the character of Holmes is a No-Respect Guy who's pretty much solved every case before Ryunosuke, and purposefully says seemingly dumb things (like thinking a Time Bomb is anti gravity device in Case 3 of Resolve) to get Ryunosuke thinking for himself. If he doesn't pass, I KNOW Tobias Gregson and possibly Kazuma Asogi will pass. Asogi is blinded by his hatred for the British particularly Van Zieks, but given the way Van Zieks treats his race, friends and father, it's hard to blame him. Barok Van Zieks himself has a Freudian Excuse for his racism (the Jack The Rippoff murderer behind London's crime spree and murdered his brother was Genshin Asogi, Kazuma's father and Japanese) but I think I might propose his brother Klint instead. Given that Klint is not only the True Professor Serial killer, but is also more affable, a Graceful Loser to Asogi and even did a last will and testament to ensure Asogi wouldn't be implicated. Had it not been for Stronghart's taking of the will, and subsequent execution of Genshin, Klint's plan would have gone without a hitch.
If these characters get approved, would we give Ace Attorney its own page or would we keep it on Visual Novels?
Edited by Klavice on Dec 30th 2021 at 3:44:16 AM
Harold and Robot Santa.
Tales Of Rebirth: Walto is an old, wizen member of the Four Stars known for his cunning, valor, and tenacious devotion to his country. With dominion over the Force of Sound, Walto subtly uses Mind Control to create human obstacles for Veigue and company or establish a long-winded, puzzling strategy to buy his entourage time for their mission. Despite his appearance and conviction, he is the first of his group to realize the error of his ways and help rebuild the world he almost doomed in complicity.
Miiiight have another Fate candidate coming between now and tomorrow...
So on reflection...I have another from Star Wars Legacy...
Darth Nihl.
Who is Darth Nihl?
A powerful Sith Lord of the One Sith Order, Nihl is distinguished from his fellows by black tattoos over his white skin as compared to the customary red and black. Long ago, Nihl was a tracker and hunter on his homeworld, then a warlord. Nihl led a series of raids over the world for many years...found by Darth Krayt, Nihl apprenticed himself to the Dark Lord and underwent Sith training and emerged as Darth Nihl, Krayt's top enforcer. Serving as Krayt's Fist, his military commander, Nihl was unexpectedly promoted to Hand, the chief enforcer of Krayt's will after the death of his predecessor.
Nhil led the attack on Ossus and killed many Jedi, defeating the Jedi Master Wolf Sazen and then battling Kol Skywalker, the Jedi Grandmaster. Nihl killed Kol by striking from behind with force lightning and later returned to help Krayt seize the Galaxy's throne...to Nihl's dissatisfaction, a second Hand was chosen as well: Darth Talon.
The renegade Jedi Cade Skywalker, hunted by Krayt for a healing power, was tracked down by the hands. Cade slipped away, barely evading Nihl who fosted off the failure on Talon, gleefully stating Talon would be forced to take the blame and then Krayt would have only two hands, as was meant to be.
when Cade returned to Coruscant, Nihl caught him in a trap and subdued him...Nihl began to gain some dissatisfaction over how things were being approached, and Krayt's secrecy. Nonetheless, in the ensuing battle, Cade defeated Nihl and almost killed him. Krayt coldly demoted Nihl. Krayt was later seemingly overthrown by his right hand and best friend Darth Wyyrlok...Nihl? Realized the truth soon enough but when Krayt's corpse vanished, Nihl decided to play along and find Krayt and Darth talon...tracking Talon, his plan? To make sure Krayt was dead and kill him if not. Finding Talon, the two dueled, but Krayt revealed himself and offered Nihl the power he wanted...Nihl helped Krayt to strike back at Wyyrlok and Krayt won, taking his place as Dark Lord while Nihl oversaw the military matters...
Realizing a chance Krayt would fall, Nihl instead swayed a number of Sith to his side and when Krayt lost, Nihl initiated a coup to wipe out Krayt's specially bread "Children" and delivered an order: meet at the predetermined coordinates.
Now the lord of the Sith, Nih ordered his forces to hide their fleets and instituted a new plan:
"We will disperse into the galaxy in small numbers, masking ourselves, hiding amidst the enemy. We will infiltrate governments on every planet. All must be brought down for something new to be created. Together or alone, we will slip onto worlds and strike from the shadows. We will be invisible. We will be patient. All that exists will be torn apart from within. Darth Krayt's vision of the galaxy remade will be realized. He lives in us. The Sith will prevail."
now, the Sith are supposed to be wiped out in the succession, Legacy 2...but Nihl is never seen and it's never shown if he indeed falls in battle...for all we know Nihl is out there, waiting, and plotting with the true Sith.
Mitigating issues?
Honestly, no. Nihl is an exemplary fighter and an intelligent, cunning strategist. He's a ruthless killer, one of the most interesting of the Sith and while he clearly runs his own game, Word of God confirmed Nihl is a guy with his eye at the exist. When he realized Krayt was insane, he had plans should Krayt fail...and by the end, he plots a return to power, from within the world governments.
Is he a bastard? Hell yes, he's an evil Sith who kills loads of people. In his backstory, it's remarked that when he was introduced to the Embrace of Pain (a torture device) to awaken the darkness in him, he slaughtered an entire village in anguished rage. Nihl never gets up to the atrocities others commit, though. He's a pretty efficient, ruthless guy who just goes in, does his job and doesn't glory in needless sadism.
conclusion?
giving Nihl a yes.
Nihl.
Clara. Seems a bit too tragic to me and not up to the brothers level. In addition that "negro" comment is giving me pause. It in and of itself I'd maybe be willing to give a pass but coupled with the tragic nature and her losing, I'm inclined to say it's too much.
Edited by jjjj2 on Dec 30th 2021 at 9:50:42 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
to Cartman. Even with the charaterization in the special, he still had a farmer kill a boy's parents and feed their remains to said boy as chilli over $16.12
It's really hard to forget such a action
Edit: Oh, the EP was removed
Edited by RyanPuffs on Dec 30th 2021 at 10:00:03 AM
Profile picture by @BoxNazrin on Bluesky. Give her a follow!Clara I'm iffy on the negro comment. I know the books take place in the 19th century but I see they started being published in 2006. Not sure if the author meant for us to take something out about her character there or was just writing in the (off colour) dialogue of the time. Besides that I can't quite tell if she seems too broken for this trope. I know she can still plot and manipulate but her suicide at the end seems written in the tone of a Broken Bird.
Yes to Nihl though.
Missed the EP but user I do recall suggesting you first poll the thread to see how receptive people would be, please don't barge in with an effort post on a work we've had to ban before testing the water. Regardless, I can't see any version of Cartman qualifying for this because he went beyond the pale as a kid, not even accounting for what he does or doesn't do as an adult.
Edited by 43110 on Dec 30th 2021 at 3:02:43 PM
Uh, I actually don't think this one was that bad to bring up? Like, I'm a hard abstain as I'm and not sure how disconnected we should treat him from what he did in the show proper, but all the bits I've seen what was said in the EP was accurate.
that's a good point
And yes to Nihl.
Edited by Snoketrope on Dec 30th 2021 at 7:03:59 AM
Bow to the PrototypeI'm inclined to also say that even if we didn't have that warning, Cartman's end is too pathetic. Because of his meddlng in the timeline he goes from being a successful rabbi with a loving wife and kids to an alcoholic homeless man impotently screaming vulgarities at his former classmates. But we do have the note, so I agree he shouldn't have been EPd.
Edited by jjjj2 on Dec 30th 2021 at 10:05:06 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midYes to Nihl.
Definite no to Cartman. No amount of character development will ever make him refined or dignified. Ever. The fact that he ends up a drunk loser at the end only cements how truly undignified and pathetic of a character he is. Never mind the fact we swore we'd never bring up South Park again.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 30th 2021 at 10:07:04 AM
I don't think Lore should be reprimanded, it is an annoying thing to have to keep coming back to and a step was skipped before the effort post was made. No one is dogpiling user here, don't call out Lore like he did something wrong to make a mild comment about a problem work which won't let up.
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Thank you, that really repaints this.
Edited by 43110 on Dec 30th 2021 at 3:07:23 PM

Yes to Harold and no to the Salesman (unless he undergoes the mother of all Character Development in future seasons).
Here's a new EP.
Work
The Holmes on the Range series is a western mystery comedy novel series following taciturn cowboy Gustav "Old Red" Amlingmeyer and his brother Otto (aka Big Red) imitating Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson. In this universe Holmes (and most other protagonists of pulp detective stories of the era) is a real detective who publishes his exploits, and the Amlingemeyer brothers seek to do the same thing. The first book, Holmes on the Range takes place while the brothers are still working cowboys with ambitions of being professional detectives. They are hired to work on the mysterious, ill-reputed, British owned Bar VR Ranch, and take note of the Critical Staffing Shortage, the secretive nature of the regular employees, and how the mysterious general manager of the ranch dies in a stampede just a few days before the ranch's owners arrive from England on a surprise inspection.
Who is Lady Clara St. Simon?
Clara is the daughter of the primary owner of the ranch, the Duke of Balmoral and is a melancholic, but proper and regal-looking woman. She and her secret husband Nathaniel Horne are scheming to bankrupt the ranch by stealing and selling the ranch's assets to render the Duke bankrupt and get revenge for his mistreatment of them.
What does she do?
Clara's aristocratic family has suffered a steady decline over the last two generations due to her father's relish for gambling and tawdry affairs, traits which he also embodies in Clara's brothers. She has had a longstanding friendship with Lord Brackwell, a young teenager who has never really fit in with aristocratic society. Clara and her fathers secretary Nathaniel (a man who "could have had his pick of any woman in his class- or below it") fall in love, but when the Duke discovers this, he forces them apart and blackballs Nathaniel so throughout that he can't get a job anywhere in the U.K. Clara is viewed as Defiled Forever by British society, although her father makes efforts to force her into a marriage with a Nouveau Riche American Jerkass, George Edwards. Clara and Nathaniel marry in secret and set out to get revenge on the Duke for how he's treated them, as well as humiliating Clara's mother with his affairs. She plans to bankrupt the Duke until he has to sell their family estate.
When the Duke, Edwards and various others purchase the Bar VR Ranch in America, Perkins, the man sent to manage the property, is "intercepted" by Nathaniel, who kills him and assumes his identity (something that Clara later describes as "regrettable"). They then hire local outlaws to works as the ranch hands and sell most fh the vast herds and outlying parcels of land to chip away at the Duke's fortune while buying buffalo-cattle hybrids (cattalo) and exaggerating how profitable they are in "Perkins'" letters.
A neighboring English rancher warns the Duke about some suspicious activities he's noticed, prompting a surprise inspection. Since Clara is accompanying her father and Edwards, th surprise is lost and she notifies Nathaniel. Nathaniel and his Co-Dragons, the McPherson brothers hire more local cowboys (including Old Red and Big Red) to make the ranch seem more bustling and legitamite than it really is, while planting a spy in their midst in case the new men discover anything. They fake Nathaniel/Perkins death when they find an escaped killer, who they trample and put in Nathaniel's clothes.
Days later, Clara, the Duke and the others arrive. She has some Nice to the Waiter interactions with the brothers and is embarrassed by her father's Mean Boss tendencies. Her henchmen display a small herd of cattalo and run the same animals through a display area multiple times to make the Duke and the others feel satisfied with their investment. After three years of being separated from Nathaniel, she risks a secret meeting with him. While she's waiting, one of the ranch hands, Boudreaux (unaware of her role in things), tries to sell her information proving the cattalo breeding is a scam, so she shoots him before he can tell anyone (using a pillow as a silencer) then she and Nathaniel try to stage a suicide. It fails due to Old Red doing a Sherlock Scan.
Her father makes a wager with Brackwell that Old Red can solve the case before a lawman arrives and she acts embarrassed by the bad taste of it and concerned about whether the family can afford to lose, but also acts cooperative to the investigation. She also does a Wounded Gazelle Gambit for Edwards, claiming Boudreaux tried to rape her and she shot him, so that he will be willing to take the fall for her if It comes to that.
The investigation sees Nathaniel killed in a shootout with Old Red, something which is initially kept secret. Old Red's summation tears through Edwards fall confession, and he has an ally bring in Nathaniel's body, draped over a horse. Clara breaks down crying, while Brackwell and the Duke recognize Nathaniel. Clara then pulls a gun out, but refuses to let the McPherson brothers kill the witnesses (the Amlingmeyer bothers, Edwards, Brackwell, her father, and a local lawman), saying that "Not everyone here deserves that" while glaring at her father. She also denounces the McPherson brothers as brutes she's ashamed to have associated with. She then reveals the intracieis of her plan to her father, determined to make him suffer in her defeat, but crying a little before she shoots him and then herself.
Magnificent
She has a sad backstory and is out to destroy a Hate Sink character (although he does get a somewhat pitiable treatment as h grape the thoroughness of her hate for him) and sh has a skilled plan to make that happen in style. She regrets having to kill innocents and is willing to draw the line at killing too many of them in the end.
She stands out among the villains of the series (which is currently at six books)when I considered MB candidates. The villains of three of the books might be Complete Monster material, and while the villains of the other two books are pretty intelligent and less evil (I might do at least one of them later), they also lack Clara's sympathetic treatment.
Bitch
There's quite a bit of hate and spite in her scheme, and her desire to really hurt her father before the murder- suicide that she resorts to, and however much she may regret it, she has condoned and committed murder.
Mitigating factors
She calls Boudreaux a "hideous Negro" during her confession while expressing frustration about his informing but that comment alone makes it hard to tell if she is racist, given the standards of the time.
P.S. This got to be longer than I meant, let me know if it is too long.
Edited by Melinda on Dec 30th 2021 at 3:04:34 AM