During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Jeff.
No to the Salesman. Others hit my exact concern; the monstrously elitist nature of the games is an incredibly poor environment for an MB. Maybe possibly the Front Man could keep in the future since he's the only member with motivations beyond "torture poor people for fun" but that's a long time we'll have to wait and see.
- Hostage: Jeff Talley is a police chief traumatized former hostage negotiator whose family is taken captive by the mob in the midst of a hostage situation involving the Smith family, the father Walter of whom has their encrypted disk. Retrieving the disk through communication with the family son, Jeff also nearly shocks the unconscious Walter to death to have him take Jeff to the drop location, where he stages a fight with him to trick and kill the remaining criminals.
So, I missed this for Christmas, but...
What's the work?
Futurama is a comedy series by Matt Groening of The Simpsons fame...Fry is an average loser knocked into a cryogenic chamber and awakening in the future, where he meets an array of strange characters. Including the alcoholic robot Bender, the beautiful one eyed pilot Leela and others...now we'll discuss one antagonist:
Santa.
Who is santa?
A robotic Santa Claus created in 2801 to judge the nice from the naughty and sort them out accordingly. Due to a programming error, his standards went way, WAY too high....and he tends to attack on Christmas, destroying everything in his path with items from his sack of horrors. Throughout the year, he chills out on Neptune, making his elf robots design his weapons. First encountered by Fry on Christmas, Santa attacks the group, and is...quite tactical and hilarious in how he approaches things. Declaring the group have all been very naughty ("except you, Dr. Zoidberg, here's a pogo stick!"), Santa is bested, but still completes his ramage and declares he'll return: next X-mas.
They proced to try to stop Santa the next year with a logical paradox, except Santa is immune to those. Santa is still bested and Bender assumes the mantle of Santa, who is pretty nonchalant for it....as he lets Bender take the rap and is nearly executed for Santa's crimes. The real Santa survives, busts out and realizing he needs help for once, asks Bender to help him out. When Fry yells "don't do it, he's evil!" Santa admits he knows, but he has no choice.
So, Santa completes his rampage and gives Bender a present: an empty box. "It may be empty, but my message is clear. Play Santa again? I'll kill you next year.
Mitigating issues?
Nah. Santa's evil is mitigated by how smart and frankly hilarious he is. He pulls off a rampage every year, he lures Bender into helping him, he's immune from logical paradoxes...and while he's evil as it get, he has some moments of hilarious standards. He's horrified when Bender tries to frame an orphan, he's one of the only people to recognize the worth of poor Dr. Zoidberg and even Santa thinks Bender is evil.
Conclusion?
Keeper.
Yes to Robot Santa. Another for John Goodman and John DiMaggio.
Huh, any reason you didn't bring up Bender's Big Score?
Because in that one, Robot Santa ends up being one of the many people scammed by Nudar, leading to him using his elves to make weapons to help the citizens of Earth take back control of the planet and get his revenge.
He even got a rap song with Mark Hamill as the Hanukkah Zombie and Coolio as Kwanzaa-bot:
So yeah, I'll give him a
Hahaha, I completely forgot
- Futurama: Santa Claus, the terrifying monster of X-mas, is a robot who sees almost everyone on the Naughty List and conducts a terrifying yearly raid that leaves many dead or maimed. Upon judging Fry and friends naughty (save Dr. Zoidberg, who gets a pogo stick), Santa is driven back but vows to return the next X-mas. Seemingly bested in favor of Bender, Santa frees Bender and ropes him in for the rampage before revealing a threat to Bender to never play Santa ever again. Even after being dethroned, Santa is able to launch a plot of revenge after enjoying a rap with the Hanukkah Zombie and Kwanza Bot
Okay, it seems like the consensus for Ludmoore is "wait and see." Fair enough. But I do have one more candidate from the same fic.
Who is Harold Hale? What has he done?
Harold Hale is Cornelia Hale's father, and a banker who works for Bartholomew Chang. Initially, it doesn't seem like he knows that Chang is a major member of a worldwide criminal organization. Given that Jade and Cornelia are friends, Jackie Chan decides he can trust Hale with the knowledge that Chang is a leader of the Dark Hand, and asks for help to find out what Chang is planning.
Only, it turns out that not only is Harold Hale aware of the Dark Hand, but he's an active member. He delivers Jackie to Chang, who blackmails Jackie into working for him with evidence of the girls' Guardian activities. On their way out, Hale tells Jackie that his black-and-white view of the world is naïve, that Section 13 has caused harm to innocents as much as the Dark Hand, and that he works for the Dark Hand to benefit his family. Jackie isn't able to understand how a man who very clearly genuinely loves his family is able to work for the Dark Hand even knowing what they do.
Cornelia tells her father about being a Guardian, and Harold Hale believes Jackie involved her in the business with the Dark Hand. He almost goes full Papa Wolf, but Cornelia talks him down. For her sake, he decides to switch sides, and betray the Dark Hand for Section 13. Captain Black agrees to arrest Chang and his inner circle, place Harold Hale in charge of the American branch of the Dark Hand, and use him to gain evidence on the other branches of the organization, to Quentin Ross's anger. With Hale's help, Section 13 busts the Dark Hand's magic artifact smuggling operation, Chang is arrested, and everything is peaches.
Only, it turns out that the story doesn't end there. Quentin Ross goes full vigilante and decides to hunt down Hale himself. It backfires; after breaking Ross's arm and ribs with one blow, Hale reveals that the world's governments actually know about magic and the existence of other worlds, but wanted to prevent causing a panic. So, they created the Dark Hand in order to have an organization that commits crimes using magic, then created Section 13 to discover magic, take down the Dark Hand, and then the world governments can use magic without causing confusion and panic. And as for the criminals who get caught in the crossfire, well, who cares?
Hale then meets with the other leaders of the Dark Hand, revealing that he was not just a member, but actually one of the founding members. Among the leaders is the real Bartholomew Chang, who replaced himself with a clone. It is revealed that everything that Hale did, from bringing in Jackie Chan, to defecting to Section 13, to helping take down the clone of Chang, was all part of his plan. The leaders make notes of every potential unknown factor, including Tarakudo, Niles Valmont, and Nimue, whom Hale mentions he actually knows.
Because he's actually the immortal King Arthur Pendragon.
He has a few more scenes after that where he gives advice to Cornelia, but that's all the stuff related to his plot so far. Even so, it gives a good enough idea of his motivations.
Magnificent?
Well, he almost rivals Ludmoore for the role of The Chessmaster. In fact, the entirety of the Dark Hand and Section 13 is his work. He only genuinely breaks composure once, and considering that it's a Papa Wolf moment, it doesn't really disqualify him. Hell, some of our defining M Bs have broken composure over family being in danger. Everything aside from that ties into his master plan, aside from his other dad moments.
Bastard?
For as good a cause as it might have been, he did help found a criminal empire that victimized a fair number of people, and it's implied that he brutally killed Quentin Ross, though Ross had just tried to kill him. He's not the most bastardly bastard ever, but we've put up M Bs for less.
Verdict?
I feel he's worth a spot.
![]()
I haven't been keeping up, so this will be a surprise.
Also,
for Harold.

No to the Salesman. The fact that he is willingly participating in a scheme to kill off hundreds of poor people for the entertainment of elitist pigs gives me a lot of reservation.