During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Heck yea
Yes to Pip.
So are the human allies completely ignorant to what Millenium entails? I'm a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
if so.
The funny thing to me is that Ravok's effort post on Abridged Pip is probably going to wind up near identical in content to this one. Both versions are near identical in actions and personality.
Yes, of course, to the original Pip. Though you did skip over one of his best moments of luring a bunch of Nazi vampires into a field of claymores.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Nov 28th 2021 at 8:45:28 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
We can talk more about his bigotry but I don't think I can agree his use of the Nail kills his chances... he remains quite a tricky fighter till the end and even if Alucard laments he's thrown aside his humanity I can't see it as symbolizing anything like a complete loss of will and strength in a mitigating way, he's a Knight Templar taking any means to stop a very powerful, very evil vampire. As he comes back to his senses with its effects gone he's completely graceful in death and even gives Alucard—who to him would be the heathen of heathens—some parting words.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I put it in, I mentioned the landmines would have wiped out any force but the one he was facing.
They're corrupt cops Alahambra promised to turn into vampires, it's highly unlikely they knew about the plans for a World War if that's what you're asking.
Edited by 43110 on Nov 28th 2021 at 4:46:50 PM
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Penny, and a big one to Pip, for sure!
My counters on Anderson who I've felt has had more of a chance of counting than he's been offered for awhile, would be...
- For cleverness, he lures Alucard and Seras into the trap at the start, saves and guards Integra with his sect of Iscariot agents he himself trained, coolly betrays and helps take down Maxwell, then uses not only his own clever tactics and weaponized suicide-bomber soldiers, but also uses the Nail for a power boost when he's been severely fucked up—I think saying he had a chance to win at that point isn't really applicable, he had just fought through an army and had very little use of his left arm, and his ultimate monster form comes one of the closest to killing Alucard in the whole story.
- On his bigotry, here's my thing: when he mentions "heathens" in almost every scenario, he's referring to, in the same breath, "monsters" like Alucard and other vampires. When speaking to the fighting children, he says "save the fighting for heathens and monsters". For all his gleeful snarling that Integra is a "Protestant whore" in their first meeting when she's got him surrounded by armed thugs, Anderson later saves Integra, commends her abilities, and works with her for a time to such a point that he expresses respect to Seras and comments how impressive she's become despite her status as a "vampire." He's disgusted by Maxwell's ultimate butchering of hundreds of innocents civilians—remarking that though Maxwell's tactics might have some merit "in some scenarios against heathens like Hellsing", what's going on now is pure monstrosity—and he dies at the end with a genuine Worthy Opponent feeling from Alucard with the story giving Anderson complete nuance and respect in how he handled himself.
His Abridged version lands handily as we'll soon see, but I do think his OG version has the smarts and badassery easily, and the bigotry feels a lot more like "he has humorous squabbles with Protestants and considers heathens and monsters worth slaughtering", but when actual innocents are caught in the crossfire, he's utterly repulsed, takes down Maxwell, and orders the remaining troops to end the bloodshed and go home.
Regardless, as I said, I'm doing his Abridged one soon so that's something, lol.
Edited by Ravok on Nov 28th 2021 at 8:49:36 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
As usual Ravok sums it up much better than I can... from what we see Anderson largely saves such language and opinions for those like Alucard and the ones who use/employ vampires. He's gruff but I'm not sure he means Protestants in general when he gives his line to Integra about normally applauding such tactics. When he's not hunting vampires the dude runs an orphanage and there's a pronounced nobility to his character, much of a Blood Knight as he may be and I'm not sure raving bigot is the type we're looking at.
So wait what are Pip's main points of bastardry? Is it being part of a morally ambiguous organization? I'm just seeing a dark Anti-Hero at this point. Am I missing something?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
He's a mercenary who literally does his job because he finds it fun and he's been doing it for years before Hellsing hired him.
My bad. I was looking for the land mine bit in the main section and I guess just skipped over the last bit.
Okay fair enough. Pip.
No worries, I have a weird habit of splitting up my EPs in terms of how I reference things.
RIP Toriyama
Yeah, Pip is very much a mercenary who has been killing for years just for money and one of his first scenes is killing a bunch of cops who, though technically working for the villains, are completely oblivious to their being used for evil deeds beyond mere corruption, just semi-innocent men tricked into helping baddies much worse than themselves, and Pip nonetheless decimates the lot of 'em.
Edited by Ravok on Nov 28th 2021 at 8:55:46 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
It's made abundantly clear through Pip's talk with his granddad, too? There's nothing noble to mercenary work. They fight, they kill and they get paid. They'll kill good men and bad alike. And Pip's inherited the tradition.
RIP Akira Toriyama
Yes to Pip.
Not for the money but because fighting is fun, are the words attributed.
Even in comparison to the current keeper, I see Pip as an overall less moral person that Intergra.
Also, who did the Discworld entry on Vetinari? I'm curious if you think the Luggage itself would ever be a worthwhile candidate. It can be quite clever with its traps and opportunistic attack and can somehow be expressive and intimidating for just a wooden chest. Just wondering because I think it would be a hilarious candidate to propose.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Nov 28th 2021 at 9:09:10 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Yes to Penny and Pip "Huff and puff and blow me" Bernadotte.
I hate spoilers
This is my third entry from Hunter × Hunter, so I'm not even gonna bother with the intro, especially since someone else already did Chrollo in the past.
Who is Razor?
Razor is one of the developers of Greed Island, and a death row inmate liberated by Ging Freecs, Gon's dad. He guards one of the cards required to complete the game and has been tasked by Ging to give Gon Training from Hell. He leads a group of fellow inmates who are challenged to a series of sports by a team that includes Gon, Killua, Biscuit Kreuger, and Hisoka as a Guest-Star Party Member.
Is he Magnificent?
Absolutely. Razor is a Fair-Play Villain who follows the rules that he places in his games, lets the other team get the first hit in the dodgeball game, and is a Genius Bruiser that seems to have perfected his 14 Devils: an ability that lets him use several Fighting Spirits called Nen Beasts (including a referee) for dodgeball. They can merge to become a stronger beast. His tactics involve passing the ball to his team at a fast pace to confuse his opponent and attack them from behind. Razor is Awesome by Analysis, quickly picking up on the other team's thought processes and can adapt quickly. This is demonstrated when he says that Gon doesn't want to defeat him by dodging his last attack. He even monologues to himself about how Gon, Killua, and Hisoka were able to stop his deadly serve, explaining how the whole process was possible. When he's finally defeated, Razor's a Graceful Loser who tells Gon about his relationship with Ging.
Is he a Bastard? Too much?
Just barely enough. As Affably Evil as he can be, his Undying Loyalty to Ging means Razor's willing to go all out against Gon's team, admitting that his attacks can potentially kill their group. More than one of these attacks is directed to Gon himself, showing that Razor Would Hurt a Child. This makes him a serious Sink or Swim Mentor who takes Dodgeball Is Hell to the extreme. He also kills one of his men, even if he was an Asshole Victim who was Too Dumb to Live. By the way, the manga depicts the inmate's death as pretty graphic
◊.
Any Migitating Factors?
Razor isn't a brilliant schemer, but he's smart enough to establish a complex set of rules for his dodgeball game, makes creative use of his Nen ability, and never loses his cool.
Final Verdict
I say he keeps. Razor is just dangerous enough to qualify for the "bastard" part since he asked permission to kill Gon in a flashback with Ging and said to himself that Gon and Killua might survive the game if they're lucky.
Everyone look at my sandbox
TheCrimsonFuckr, Chauffeur, Penny, Pip and Razor
Leaning yes to Razor.
The Moron
Alrighty, let's get this show on the road. I apologize for the length - I really did try to keep it brief - but now, we can at least put this discussion to bed one way or the other.
What is the work?
Professor Arc is one of the most popular RWBY fics out there. Basically, Jaune fakes his transcripts as per canon with help from Roman Torchwick, but they're so good that Ozpin hires him as a professor instead of a student. Hilarity Ensues! All jokes aside, what makes the fic so popular is that it's simultaneously balls-to-the-wall bonkers yet manages to be serious when it needs to be, creating a very well-put-together dramedy. The topic of discussion today? The man who rises from clueless wannabe Huntsman to professor, to therapist, to Headmaster, and finally savior of humanity, Jaune himself.
Who is Professor Jaune Arc? What does he do?
Professor Arc is the lovable Jaune Arc - and boy golly is he in over his head. In the first fic, though he tries making moves against Cinder, his nature usually means that he gets himself out of a problem and ends up in a worse one - it culminates in protecting Yang from expulsion only to end up arrested by Ironwood, being on the airship when Beacon is invaded. Roman lets him out, but when he and Neo refuse to switch sides, Jaune forces the issue by knocking them down, taking his cane, and destroying the Black Knight virus - the one thing keeping them on Cinder's good side. With this, he crashes the airship into Beacon and, after a long and brutal fight, powers through Cinder's flames to slice out her eye. Though he passes out, Glynda names him Headmaster in Ozpin's absence, and when the sequel comes around, though he's no less of a lovable dork, his competence increases exponentially.
After getting word that Ozpin is at Haven Academy, Jaune makes his way there and ends up encountering Salem's posse and ends up in a second fight with Cinder in the vault. Although the fight is hard, Jaune uses the environment to survive, ending up tricking Cinder into knocking herself out by flying straight into the ceiling. After releasing the Jinn of Knowledge (and employing her at Beacon, then sending her to Menagerie to help Ghira and Kali take control of the White Fang there), Jaune then takes Cinder and puts her half of the Fall Maiden powers into Pyrrha before putting her in a cell, leaving her convinced that he's a Diabolical Mastermind par excellence. He begins playing into the delusion, realizing that if he can convince her that he's a genuine threat, she might willingly partner with him to protect herself.
Soon enough, the White Fang situation in Atlas begins escalating thanks to Adam Taurus, so Jaune, Glynda, and others head to Atlas to help. To find the Fang, Jaune simply releases Blake into the city and has Oscar go with her - soon enough, they've found and taken out a White Fang base, giving Beacon (and Jaune by extension) credit for taking them down. However, this pisses Adam off, so he takes a bunch of hostages and forces Jaune into open combat. Knowing he can't take Adam in a straight fight, he uses Adam's emotions against him by pretending that he got Blake pregnant, making Adam sloppy enough to let Jaune stall for time for reinforcements to arrive. Though he's wounded in the fight, he, Blake, and Clover ultimately win and kill Adam.
Soon after, a large Grimm horde begins marching on Atlas, making Jaune and Ironwood pull out all the stops to defend the Kingdom. One of those steps? When Cinder comes to him with a plan to take the Winter Maiden powers, Jaune gives her the go-ahead, leading to Cinder convincing Fria that she's the best option to take the powers - it works, and Cinder, Pyrrha, and Raven end up intervening to defeat the horde, saving the Kingdom. Naturally, Jaune then gets himself and the Beacon crew out of Atlas as fast as he possibly can before Ironwood can discover that he stole the Winter Maiden from him.
However, despite the loss, Salem becomes more aggressive, and after she destroys Shade Academy and claims the Relic of Destruction, she begins marching towards Vale. With his back against the wall, Jaune pulls his ballsiest plan yet - he gathers the other three Relics himself and meets Salem face to face right outside the gate (though two of them are in boxes...). Since her plan here isn't to gather all four Relics, Jaune points out that if she comes any closer, he can join his Relics with hers and summon the Gods, killing all of them - a prospect that makes Ozpin personally intervene in the negotiation, begging him not to go through with it. The gambit makes her genuinely retreat despite her gigantic army of Grimm, at which point he collapses to the ground from stress... and Qrow realizes that while he genuinely had the Relic of Choice, the other two weren't the Relics at all, they were a box of cigarettes and a broom. With Jaune having bluffed Salem into a complete retreat, they now have some time to prepare for Salem's final advance.
Predicting that Salem would leave the Relic of Destruction at her tower, Jaune has Team RWBY and Cinder go to Salem's castle to retrieve the Relic of Destruction - and when Salem arrives once more, he offers to settle the situation diplomatically. Soon enough, he uses the training he got as Beacon's therapist to essentially give her therapy sessions, slowly convincing her to let him show her Beacon and humanity. Though she demands a spar before she'll enter the Academy - a spar he literally can't win because of her immortality, even if she sucks at sword fighting - he tricks her into stepping on one of the cliffside launchpads to win by ring-out, then has all the students and staff of Beacon show her why humanity is too interesting to kill - books on pretty much every possible topic, hard drugs, a strip show, everything is fair game.
Meanwhile, Cinder finds the Relic of Destruction and moves to betray Team RWBY, only for Blake to give her a letter from Jaune. In it, he perfectly predicts her intentions like always, convincing her to spare RWBY for now - but that night, Yang catches Blake burning upwards of fifty nearly identical letters, filled with pretty much every action Cinder could have possibly taken after getting the Relic. After Blake points out that Jaune really does think of everything, they burn the rest of the letters and start walking back to Beacon.
Back on campus, Jaune has finally reached out to Salem's humanity through his kindness and humanity's unique nature, managing to get her to give up her crusade - but this pisses off Hazel, who hasn't gotten his vengeance yet and decides to bring the Relics together himself. He manages to get the Relic of Choice, allowing him to predict the future and take on everyone in his way, even Tyrian. However, Jaune realizes the one thing the Relic can't predict - the other Relics. With this, Jaune has Raven portal RWBY and Cinder back with the Relic of Destruction in tow, allowing her to obliterate Hazel on the spot and ending the threat of the Brother Gods forever.
The fic then ends several years later, and while he still has to keep Cinder in line and try not to get on Winter's bad side, Remnant is enjoying a peace unlike anything it has ever experienced before.
Is he Magnificent?
Okay, so the point is made repeatedly that, especially early on, Jaune is so far in over his head it's not even funny... but even disregarding that he's essentially a teenage civilian who was pushed into the position of Big Good and has to rely on pretty much nothing but indy ploys and the power of his reputation? Jaune knows his deficits and works around them to keep gathering allies, overpower his enemies, and ultimately save Remnant entirely from Salem through the power of a Heel–Face Turn. Other characters like Cinder and Ironwood are constantly assuming he's this badass Diabolical Mastermind who's planned for every outcome which the narrative uses to show how "average" he is by comparison, but even if we just look at what he intentionally does and consider how he adapts to every obstacle thrown his way, Jaune pulls off some damn-good maneuvers.
Roman and Neo won't leave Cinder's side? He destroys their bargaining chip to force them to - even telling Roman that he's his bitch now. Cinder begins overestimating him? He plays into the delusion, in the process gaining a powerful "partner" and soon enough the power of the Winter Maiden. Adam forces him into a confrontation? He pisses him off to throw Adam off his game long enough to stall for time and get backup. Salem's on her way to Beacon? He uses a broom and a box of cigarettes to bluff her into a complete retreat, even using Ozpin's genuine reaction to sell the act. And finally, Salem's at the doorstep wanting to talk? He pulls a series of gambits to get her into Beacon, uses a giant Scheherezade Gambit to convince her to give humanity a shot, uses Cinder to get the Relic of Destruction out of Salem's hands, and then uses said Relic to defeat Hazel even after he's gained the ability to literally see the future.
For the supposed "average" guy in over his head? That's one hell of a rap sheet, and even though it takes him quite some time to get to this point, once he's there, his momentum never stops until he's completely saved Remnant.
Is he a Bastard?
He's a hero, so the question is if he's one at all - and I think he is, if only barely. Besides being willing to use Roman, Neo, and Cinder for his plans - including having Neo pull a False Flag Operation on the Atlas airship to talk to Roman and letting Roman get away from the docks heist - he also lets Cinder go behind Ironwood's back to take the Winter Maiden powers for herself and get two Maidens under his control. Plus, with his bluffing Salem gambit, the point is raised that he left his closest allies besides Roman and Neo completely in the dark, leaving them believing that he was genuinely about to risk destroying the world to make Salem leave - it's this act that completely shatters Glynda's trust in him for good, so as well-intentioned as he is, he's willing to work with criminals, let people like Cinder pull their plans if it benefits him, and keeps his allies in the dark about literal world-ending issues, so I think he's just bad enough.
Any mitigating factors?
Okay... there's also his Butt-Monkey status. There's no denying that his canon traits like his motion sickness are in play throughout the fic and they never disappear - late in the sequel his mom embarrasses the hell out of him by claiming he has a beard when he only has a single small facial hair, and the epilogue opens with him hiding in a closet from Yang - but there are a few things that, in my opinion, mitigate just how damaging they are to his status.
When I mentioned this fic the other day, Emerald brought up Grunkle Stan - and after talking with him, he is a perfect comparison to Jaune. Just like Stan, when things aren't serious, he's often the butt of a joke and his early wins are either by pure luck or land him in even more trouble than he started in - to the point that, even though the first fic ends with him recovering brilliantly, without the sequel fic the odds of him counting would be next to none. However, as the stakes get higher, his comedic and dramatic traits are pretty much completely separated - while off the clock he's often a bumbling klutz who gets made fun of for being in over his head, once things get real all of that gets shelved and he proves himself a master manipulator who can even bluff Salem herself into a full retreat and manipulate his allies to his tune, even when they know damn well he lies his way out of every problem. Basically, whenever the situation becomes life-threatening, Jaune's comedic traits are completely traded for "Professor Arc's" uncanny ability to get out of every situation on top, and while in the first story his off the clock antics tend to sabotage his genuine efforts, by the time of the sequel this is completely changed and, just like Stan, his off the clock stuff stays out of his actual planning.
Plus, while the fic does get deathly serious (enough for two CMs), it never stops being a comedy, and thus his more comedic traits (and especially his comedic wins) are completely in-character for both Jaune and the fic itself. Keep in mind, this is a story where Ozpin makes people enter Beacon's vault through the mouth of a gold lemur statue, Ironwood and Winter believe that Jaune coordinated with Cinder via hidden messages from one of Blake's smut books, Willow begins lusting for Jaune within literal minutes of her husband's death, Mercury has to pretend to be gay to get out of trouble at one point, Beacon converts the battleship Jaune crashed into a wing of the school, Cinder is locked in a cell where the TV only plays My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic (and she can't turn it off) - the point is, everyone in the fic not named Glynda is the butt of a joke at one point or another and the entire fic is balls to the wall bonkers, so getting wins through strategies like "pretending to have gotten Blake pregnant" is completely in-character for this fic. If the fic was a drama that'd be one thing, but stuff like what happens to Jaune is happening to just about everyone and it never breaks from the fic's tone, so it's not to a distracting degree - and like I said, when things get real, it all gets pushed aside.
So to recap: while the original fic has his Butt-Monkey moments genuinely sabotage his real efforts, by the time of the sequel they're completely separated from each other just like they are with Grunkle Stan, and when the entire fic is a comedy where ridiculous shit is bleeding over to the serious moments, I ultimately don't think his off-the-clock indignities are enough to take him off the list when he's always getting his crap together and is treated with dignity when it counts.
Final verdict?
Ironically enough for a character whose entire joke is that he's not an MB, I think he actually does make it in practice - and while much like Ashari, he'll be joining in on the Arc Royale, I'm not sure how that'll play out so for now, I think he's alright. What say we all? It's a weird one.
Yes to Jaune.
Goku Black
Pip and Razor.
@Lore:Tbh. Discworld probably has a couple of more. Hell maybe lots. Pratchet loved villains of this archetype. Ventinari's mentor Madam, Moist von Lipwig, lady Margolotta, etc. We just haven't dived yet.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
And a fair shake he shall receive:
Who is Pip Bernadotte? What has he done?
Born into a long-standing mercenary family, Pip was raised by his mom and grandfather after his father died on a job. Pip was bullied for being the child of "murderers" but later found it to be his calling as well, an expert killer who formed his own squad, the Wild Geese, whom he lead with boisterous charm.
After the Valentine brothers massacre much of the Hellsing staff, they're brought on as muscle and Pip accompanies Alucard and Seras on their trip to Brazil. While Alucard battles the vampire Tubalcain Alhambra, Pip singlehandedly demolishes the Millennium agent's ranking police affiliates, bombing their tents and later hijacks a helicopter for he and his comrades to escape with.
During the battle for London, Pip is stationed at the Hellsing manor alongside his men and Seras to defend. They wind up facing Zorin as she charges forth, refusing to listen to the Major's orders to observe and though Seras manages to destroy their transports, many of the Nazi vampires survive to begin their onslaught, Zorin's own illusion magic terrifying Pip's men into submission until Seras shatters her spell. Taking his men to hold off the vampires, Pip has Seras act as a search and destroy unit against Zorin's forces. Eventually, Pip's squad mates are killed and he's wounded before Seras manages to save him before she's crippled by Zorin. Boldly attacking the evil vampire, Pip's mortally wounded in the struggle though Zorin's disrespect to him leads Seras to drink her dying Love Interest's blood, empowering herself to decimate Zorin and her remaining troops.
Joined as Seras' familiar, he stays within her, popping out near the end to help kill the Captain and allowing Seras to go on and face the Major himself with Integra.
Actions and personality?
After his initial skepticism's shattered Pip becomes an expert vampire hunter, wiping out their human allies and setting a variety of traps, his landmines in particular which would have killed anything but vamps and strategizes brilliantly to fight Zorin's squad.
Mitigating factors?
The one dyke line but even if we take that as an accurate translation he's venting at a psychopath massacring his best friends and it didn't even make it to the OVA.
Verdict?
Solid pass.
Edited by 43110 on Nov 28th 2021 at 4:40:58 PM