During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
to Amber Sweet, Mandy, Salvatore Ganacci, Seth, Richie, Eddie, the Fairy Godfather, the Regulator, Salvatore Ganacci, Tywin Lannister, the Spider, Ma Barker, Lucy, Eli, Josie, Cinderella, Yuri Orlov, Danny Archer, Mr Compress, Hayato Jin, Pescaling Pax, Doug, Kamui, Kishanlal, Dick Richards, Jovan Myovic, Sandie, Sooga, Ximena Vasconcelos, Kisa, Martin Relf, Gwendoline Starr, Pickman, Korina Dominguez, Veylos, Elincia, Volke, Re-Destro and the Scorpion.
Veylos, Elincia, and Volke. Sorry for vanishing for another week, but I got another proposal in mind.
Alright, this one's an old one, and y'all might disagree, but hey, that's what we're here for, right?
What's the Work?
Super Mario Bros. 3 is the third (well, technically fourth if you include The Lost Levels) game in Super Mario Bros. series, a franchise mainly consisting of platform games that revolve around two Italian plumbers, Mario and Luigi, as they try to rescue Princess Peach from Bowser, a turtle-dragon-dinosaur-thing that wants to take over Peach's Mushroom Kingdom.
Now for the game itself and the candidate in question...
Who Is Bowser? As if y'all don't already know who he is. Bowser is the tyrannical king of the Koopa Troop who seeks to conquer the Mushroom Kingdom.
In this game, Bowser sends his primary minions, the Koopalings, to take over seven kingdoms and transform their rulers into animals using magic wands that they stole from said rulers. Mario and Luigi respond accordingly, traveling to each world, defeating the Koopalings, and restoring the kings to normal, receiving a letter from Peach after each challenge. After defeating the final Koopaling and rescuing the seventh king, Mario and Luigi, victorious, open the final letter from Peach, and...
Wait, it's not from Peach. It's from Bowser. Apparently, while the brothers were busy trying to undo all the chaos the Koopalings were causing in the seven kingdoms, Bowser had swooped in and kidnapped Princess Peach completely unopposed (well, aside from maybe the Toads, but it ain't like they're much of a threat). In the letter, Bowser challenges the brothers to come and rescue her yet again in the final world, only this time, Bowser isn't messing around. When they arrive in World 8, Bowser throws his entire military at them. And by his entire military, I mean his entire military. The army, airforce, navy, everything, showing that he really means business. And these levels are not easy, either.
After fighting their way through nearly-insurmountable odds, Mario and Luigi arrive at Bowser's castle, where they engage in a final fight with him. Immune to all power-ups, the only way for the brothers to beat him is to trick him into falling through the floor while trying to crush them. Using this strategy, Mario and Luigi defeat Bowser and save the princess, the end.
Is He Magnificent?
Surprisingly, yes. He's not as flashy as his incarnations in 3D World and Odyssey, but he makes up for it in the cleverness of his plan. It's almost a Xanatos Gambit : if the brothers don't intervene, he gets to keep seven whole kingdoms to impose his rule upon. If they do, he gets to kidnap Peach and take over the Mushroom Kingdom, which is his main goal throughout the series, while also sending his entire military force after Mario and Luigi to stamp out the possibility of them stopping him. Either way he wins. Or at least that's how it would've gone if the Mario Bros. weren't unstoppable killing machines capable of decimating entire armies even without the aid of one another, but I think we can somewhat forgive the Koopa King for not realizing the full power of two chubby Italian plumbers. And besides, he did sic almost his entire military on them, so he definitely didn't underestimate them.
Is He a Bastard? Too Much?
C'mon, it's Bowser. The guy from Honest Trailers put it best when he called Bowser a "horrible, kidnapping monster", and Super Mario Bros. 3 does nothing to do away with that perception. Then again, it's Bowser, so he never does anything too heinous. He's also not nearly as much of a comic relief or Smug Snake as he is later games, either.
Verdict? Some of you may think that the plot is too simplistic, but I think there's just enough story and Bowser shows enough surprising ingenuity to support him qualifying for this trope. I'd give him a solid yes.
Skyward bound and adrift in timeMy issue is lack of character. The game has the barest of Excuse Plots, but Guma also raises a good point. Like in 3d world while you can say he's defeated by standing on the pow block, he at least has enough of a presence and cunning in the level beforehand. All bowser does in the level is die by the floor method in 3. Also you can defeat him with fire or hammers, it just takes awhile, not that that matters just clearing up a little misconception.
I've lost count of how many
's I've had on this thread, but it's certainly a lot...
Edited by jjjj2 on Nov 13th 2021 at 8:10:37 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid![]()
![]()
You can edit your own comments, so you don't have to double post.
Edited by 227someguy on Nov 13th 2021 at 8:09:56 AM
Everyone look at my sandbox@ Scraggle: Hope you enjoy Red Notice. Just watched it yesterday so feel free to PM me about it if you want.
to Veylos, Elincia, Volke, and Re-Destro.
to Bowser
Alright here's my candidates
- Army of Thieves:
- Gwendoline Starr leads a band of thieves in Europe, orchestrating many heists throughout the continent. Wanting to steal from the three safes made by legendary safe builder Hans Wagner, Gwendoline recruits Sebastian Schlencht-Wöhnert to her band upon seeing his skills in safecracking in actions, having him successfully crack the first two safes while also evading the authorities. Leaving Brad Cage band when the latter abandon Sebastian, she and Korina find Sebastian and convince him to help them crack the third safe in Switzerland. Literally stealing the third safe and eventually cracking it Gwendoline subdues Brad Cage and leaves him for Interpol to arrest before allowing herself to be arrested so that Sebastian may escape while giving the identity, "Ludwig Dieter", to start a new life
- Korina Dominguez is a brilliant hacker who uses her skills to help the aforementioned Gwendoline Starr pull off many heists thought to be impossible. She displays her genius in the first two safe heists by hacking into security cameras and later into Interpol's severs to have them go on wild goose chases so her band can succeed in their heists. Korina would then follow Gwendoline Starr when she decides to leave the Brad Cage and help her and Sebastian steal the third safe in Switzerland. She would then try to stop Brad Cage and Rolph from pursuing Gwendoline and Starr before finding a way to warn her allies of them, upon being captured by Interpol.
I believe that they would go under Zeus in the Army of the Dead tree.
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 13th 2021 at 4:26:28 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
to Veylos, Elincia, Volke, Re-Destro and the Scorpion.
to Bowser.
@~Scraggle Uhh…~Highfalutin Quelea said he wanted it. I told him if he knew how to reserve it, he should do that.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 13th 2021 at 6:37:58 AM
Any more votes for the Scorpion
?

Could I get more votes on Veylos
?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."