During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
to Pickman.
Alright here is my second Army of Thieves candidate Korina Dominguez.
Who Is She? What Has She Done?
Korina Dominguez is a brilliant hacker who was recruited by Gwendoline Starr to partake in Starr’s many heists where Korina helps Starr orchestrate many heists with one example of Korina’s genius is displayed was during the Paris Heist where he hacks the cameras allowing Starr and Sebastian to enter the vault and crack the safe there unnoticed before leaving the bank all with none being the wiser.
Korina’s brilliance is further established in the second heist in Prague where Korina hacks into the Interpol network where she would send all the authorities to the wrong bank allowing Starr and Sebastian to infiltrate the vault and crack the second safe before leaving with money in tow.
Korina would also show disgust at Brad abandoning Sebastian, where she leaves Brad and Rolph and follow Starr where they go to Germany to find Sebastian and convince them to join them in their effort to crack Wagner’s last safe, where the trio would then travel to St. Moritz, Switzerland, where the third safe is located.
Korina would seduce the snipers guarding the safe before knocking them all out before convincing the bank teller to transfer the safe to Starr and Sebastian’s truck allowing them to literally steal the heist, while using her hacker skills to edit the footage and tricking the Interpol agents to come to the bank in the evening when they already stole the safe.
However Korina sees Brad and Rolph following Starr and Sebastian where, Korina tries to stop the two, only for the police to catch her before she could. Despite being captured by Interpol, Korina refuses to give up her allies despite Delacroix’s interrogation and would find a way to warn Starr and Sebastian about Brad and Rolph, by subtly texting them “RUN” before throwing her phone under an upcoming car, giving them enough time to evade Brad and Rolph and crack the third safe
Is She Intelligent? Is She Charismatic?
She’s a brilliant hacker who first hack into a major movie production's private servers to leak an early copy of Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest when she was only ten and would help Gwendoline orchestrate many heists, while using her hacking skills to ensure that their heists are successful while remaining one step ahead from everyone else.
Also for charm, She Cleans Up Nicely where she’s shown to be very beautiful and uses her good looks to seduce the sniper and guards into letting their guard down for Korina to dismantle and knock out, and always remains level-headed even when captured where she refuses to give up her allies and even finds a way to warn them.
What’s The Competition Like?
Yeah basically Korina is the only one who can match Starr in terms of brilliance, charm, and deviousness, while being a hacking prodigy allowing Korina to stand out and differentiate herself from Starr, with no one else so yeah I’d say Korina also clears the competition here.
Is She a Bitch? Is She Too Much of a Bitch?
Korina is an international criminal who has participated in many heists and bank robberies and has the authorities run wild goose chases, so yeah she is a bastard. However she’s never cruel or overtly heinous in her crimes, nor is she greedy, shows disgust at Brad abandoning Sebastian where she leaves him and proven to have Undying Loyalty to her allies refusing to sell them out to her interrogators.
Final Verdict
I’ll leave it up for you guys.
Also dont forget to vote for Gwendoline Starr
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 12th 2021 at 5:11:39 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffSure to Korina.
Father's tricky for me because of his monstrous treatment of the Synths. It's not to the levels of the Brotherhood's "you don't deserve to exist" rhetoric, but IDK, the way he talks about the Synths' liberation as an unfathomably stupid decision speaks volumes about the dude's Fantastic Racism, even when you consider things like him creating synth!Shaun.
Any opinion on Ishmael Ashur from The Pitt, Lore? He's also got systemic slavery, but he's reluctant about it, he doesn't discriminate, he doesn't dehumanize his slaves and he's intending on a solution that'll hopefully result in a society where he doesn't have to enslave anyone. That, and for as awful as the Pitt's conditions are, I remember Ashur being extremely driven and affable himself.
Starr, Pickman and Korina.
With all the info given, I'm gonna keep my
Martin. He doesn't seem to be callous enough or lack of caring enough about the outside world for me to see him as enough of a bastard. Contrast this with me upvoting Pickman, who while only killing Serial Killers is doing it in enough of an over the top and sadistic manner for me to be comfortable giving an
.
I think his hugest qualifier there is having singlehandedly turned the Pitt from a lawless hellhole into an actual semi-government. It's not at all a pretty society, but it's a huge feat to have rallied the otherwise mindlessly-violent Raider gangs of the Pitt into an actual army—the dude's so charismatic and such an effective leader that some of the Pitt's residents have quite literally taking to worshiping him as a god.
While I don't recall him having any huge, Chessmaster-esque plans for a DLC villain, I think his Utopia Justifies the Means goal mixed in with his brutal-but-effective Visionary Villain methods make him a pretty decent qualifier.
Edited by Scraggle on Nov 12th 2021 at 9:19:27 AM
I suppose. It's not like every candidate can be a Mr House.
Normally, I wouldn't mind jumping in on the Fallout stuff witb you like I did Elder Scrolls, but I'm in too deep with the Runescape and soon Warcraft dive.
Also, for the record, I still won our Elder Scrolls competition.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Nov 12th 2021 at 8:29:55 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Yes to Korina.
Ay speaking of Mr. House, anybody mind if I give him a rewrite? He was the first thing I ever did on this thread and his entry is starting to show its age (mainly the fact that I tried so hard to be concise that it reads awkwardly and it leaves out some stuff). Plus it's a little weird that the guy with the most feats of all the Fallout keepers also has the shortest entry lol.
Edited by DocSharp on Nov 12th 2021 at 8:42:33 AM
to Martin, Starr, Pickman and Korina.
to the Question.
I am wondering why is Of Gold and Iron in the Literature folder on Magnificent Bastard Fan Works and is listed as a A Song of Ice and Fire fanfic according to the page its a Game of Thrones fanfic?
I guess that is a fair point, though the rest of the wiki does make distinctions between Fan Works based on both.
Yes to Korina and Pikmin
Also I wanted to make a small edit to Cinderella's entry, specifically I wanted to replace the words "mad scientist" in the first sentence with "Spark" since that's the in universe name for mad scientists and also pothole the word with Science-Related Memetic Disorder since it fits what sparks are (plus she's the page image for the trope)
As the one who made the Of Gold And Iron page and proposed the characters, it’s fine on literature. The characters are based more on their show counterparts, but it makes mythology gags to book-only events (for instance, Vargo Hoat cripples Jaime instead of Locke), and considering it’s a modern AU in the first place, it’s fine there too - I only called it a “Game of Thrones” AU on the page because that’s what the author called it on AO3
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Nov 12th 2021 at 1:09:45 PM

Some time back I did an MB post for Vance from Fallout 3. Today I'm gonna move onto the sequel Fallout 4 for another potential candidate—Pickman.
What has Pickman done?
Pickman is a creepy Serial Killer and Mad Artist operating in the Commonwealth. Pickman kills people in luridly horrible ways, using their blood to paint Lovecraftian paintsings (the Pickman's Model reference is intentional—Fallout has sort of a thing for referencing Lovecraft in its works).
The things is, Pickman doesn't target innocent people like the Raiders—matter of fact, he's targeting the Raiders. Pickman is a consummate Serial-Killer Killer who preys on murderers, thieves and rapists, leaving calling cards on their bodies goading them to "find me if you dare." Pickman lures Raiders into his clutches this way, outwitting and slaying them over and over and over to the point a Raider boss named Slab has brought nothing less than his entire gang to kill the dude. Every previous attempt to kill him has resulted in Pickman effortlessly slipping away. And even if the Sole Survivor doesn't elect to help him, Pickman's perfectly capable of taking on multiple heavily-armed raiders with nothing but his knife.
If the Sole Survivor does save him, Pickman—in his own creepy way—is genuinely grateful, giving them the key to his safe which contains his knife and a thank-you note: "thanks, Killer." He's hilariously blasé about the whole incident; "[Slab's gang] disagreed with my hobby of collecting their heads."
Is he too much of a bastard?
So the only possible rub is that Pickman, for as genuinely charming as he is, is undeniably Ax-Crazy. Dialogue between Raiders indicates he doesn't just kill 'em and make art of their dead bodies, he tortures them—apparently he once flayed a raider and left him for the rats. Generally these would be CM-level crimes...if every single one of his victims weren't guilty of what he was doing and worse.
While the Raiders in 4 are more three-dimensional than they are in previous games, they're still torturing, murdering, raping bandits who attack settlements, furnish their lairs with corpses on pikes and on hooks, fill logs full of the people they've murdered, and more. They're evil bastards. What Pickman is doing is a gruesome form of Pay Evil unto Evil, and while it's not to absolve his actions at all (every one of the Sole Survivor's followers, excepting the "evil" ones, will disapprove of the Sole Survivor sparing him) it puts his murders in a much different light than those of his prey. Every one of his victims is getting what they've dished out before.
Beyond that, Pickman really is friendly, if creepy, with the player; he's genuinely grateful for their assistance, absolutely seems to believe what he's doing is right, and seems to genuinely approve of a more heroic Sole Survivor's altruism:
What's his competition like?
Maybe Pickman isn't putting together uber-complex schemes like Ulysses, but for his tier? Pickman is fine. He's cunning enough to routinely runs circles around entire organized gangs, wreaking havoc on the Raiders and luring dozens of them into his clutches. While he does require the Sole Survivor's help to deal with Slab's entire gang, it speaks leagues to Pickman's proficiency in his craft that the Raiders need to hit him with dozens to one. Pickman's audacious and incredibly capable for a lone serial killer—no real worries here.
Conclusion?
Pickman's an Ax-Crazy serial killer, but an extremely charismatic and charming one and one whose victim choice actually makes him Creepy Awesome instead of just, well, creepy. Compare what he's doing to, say, the lunatic fuckery of the Fens Phantom, and I think Pickman qualifies just fine even despite the fairly visceral nature of his crimes. He's doing nothing worse than any of his victims are.
Edited by Scraggle on Nov 12th 2021 at 8:32:44 AM