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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#61726: Nov 1st 2021 at 5:33:30 PM

I'm gonna do another Creepshow MB, just to get her out of the way.

What's the work?

For those not familiar, Creepshow is an anthology series on Shudder based on the two anthology movies (what do you mean, there's a third?) of the same name. This episode in particular, Stranger Sings, is about a down-on-his-luck doctor lured into a trap by a seemingly friendly woman named Sarah, where he is forced to perform surgery on her friend, a siren named Miranda.

Who is Miranda? What has she done?

Miranda is a siren who has been around since the days of the ancient Greeks. And no, she is not some quasi-mermaid who brings men to their watery deaths with her voice (though she does use her singing voice as her primary means of luring them to her), but a winged beast who looks like this in her true form. Slaughtering and devouring men in countless numbers back in those days, she now longs for a normal, mortal life. Using her friend Sarah to bring our protagonist Barry — who, to them, fits the bill for a total desperate loser — to her house, she forces him to perform surgery on her to remove her siren vocal cords and transfer them to Sarah. To ensure that he actually does as he's told without trying to kill either of them, she goes under anesthesia and allows Sarah to watch her, and vice versa. Post-surgery, Sarah becomes Drunk on the Dark Side and attacks Barry, trying to rape and kill him, and the freshly-mortal Miranda uses the only dagger that can kill a siren on Sarah. Afterwards, she apologizes profusely for what she put Barry through, and takes him out on a date.

Is she magnificent? A bitch? Too much?

Magnificent? Most definitely. She does, after all, use her voice to lure men to her, and also clearly meticulously planned the whole thing out. She didn't want anyone else to take up her mantle, either, and so she killed her much more evil "friend". As for being a bitch... well, she's certainly got a high body count, and she still continues to kill into the present day, given the mutilated corpse found in her bathroom. And killing your own friend might would be a senseless Kick the Dog if said friend wasn't a horrible person. Also, as Lighty brought up to me, Sarah's attempted rape of Barry might imply that all sirens are rapists, but I just didn't get that impression? Sarah is much more unambiguously evil than Miranda, who is all but stated to regret her past.

What's the competition?

Personally... I'm of the opinion that since the different stories in Creepshow aren't really connected except by virtue of being in the same series... competition shouldn't be an issue. When it comes to the episode proper... no contest. Miranda is the mastermind, whereas Sarah is just her lackey who wants power for herself. As for the series as a whole, she does have the man in the suitcase to compete with, but I feel that she stands on her own as an MB.

Verdict?

Up to you.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#61727: Nov 1st 2021 at 6:00:28 PM

Our sample size of sirens is two and she sounds horrified and remorseful for what Sarah tries. Unless there's something more substantive I'm missing I'm feeling a yes for Miranda.

Yes to Mian as well, good work guys!

Edited by 43110 on Nov 1st 2021 at 1:00:48 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#61728: Nov 1st 2021 at 6:00:32 PM

Yes to Miranda.

The episode emphasizes she hates what she is and never had a choice...then kills Sarah when she tries to rape and kill the poor doctor and ends up as a romantic item with him.

And even goes Vegetarian.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#61729: Nov 1st 2021 at 6:01:18 PM

[tup]Miranda

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#61731: Nov 1st 2021 at 6:39:46 PM

[tup] to Mian and Miranda.

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#61733: Nov 1st 2021 at 6:43:19 PM

[tup]Mian and Miranda.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#61735: Nov 1st 2021 at 6:56:03 PM

[tup] to Miranda

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#61737: Nov 1st 2021 at 7:29:02 PM

Yes to Mian and Miranda.

Edited by YobabyColin on Nov 1st 2021 at 10:29:37 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
227someguy I hate spoilers Since: Apr, 2017
I hate spoilers
#61739: Nov 1st 2021 at 9:01:02 PM

Well, I'm bored now. I ended up doing so many EPs in a shorter amount of time than usual that I burnt myself out and currently don't have any ideas. I never expected Tales of Berseria to have four characters who were worthy. Shigure in particular required me to rewatch most of his scenes just so I could properly analyze how much he seems to hide his intelligence (his "magnificent" spot in the EP was probably the biggest one). I'd like to do Wingul from Tales of Xillia at some point, but probably not now. Lastly, I'm keeping an eye on FEH in case Eitri is worthy.

Everyone look at my sandbox
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#61740: Nov 1st 2021 at 9:04:23 PM

I don't think anybody counts in Only Murders in the Building. I mean I might be mistaken though. I'd need to think on it and maybe rewatch it too.

I'm thinking of Teddy and Theo Dimas though. Definitely not Jan.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 1st 2021 at 9:06:04 AM

magnumtropus Since: Aug, 2020
#61741: Nov 1st 2021 at 10:06:05 PM

I don't think Theo counts. He doesn't really do much besides spy on the trio. When he accidentally kills Zoe, his first instinct is to run to his father for help.

As for Teddy, his scheming amounts to grave robbing and giving implied death threats so that no one investigates Zoe's death.

Edited by magnumtropus on Nov 1st 2021 at 9:22:34 PM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#61742: Nov 1st 2021 at 10:25:48 PM

[up]He runs a very successful ring and I figured Theo was a big part of that too. That said, I get if Teddy doesn't do enough though. CM EP for Jan is up as well if you wish to take a look at it.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 1st 2021 at 10:26:41 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#61744: Nov 2nd 2021 at 7:04:28 AM

[tup] William Gascoigne, General Mian Ertu, and Miranda.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#61747: Nov 2nd 2021 at 9:00:03 AM

[tup] William.

[tup] Mian.

[tup] Miranda.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#61748: Nov 2nd 2021 at 12:24:42 PM

Yes to William, Mian and Miranda.

I've been inactive since my only surviving grandparent came to town.

I found out a few weeks ago my uncle has cancer.

I don't have anyone to propose, I was thinking of proposing Tobias Gregson from The Great Ace Attorney, but he might be too silly. I mean we let Fawful by but this is a serious Sherlock Holmes esque game. There's also the fact he's murdered in the final case to "tidy up loose ends" on Chief Justice Stronghart's part.

Can a villain be murdered by another villain and still count when they were working with said villain the whole time? He wasn't outgambitted or anything, he had a Heel–Face Door-Slam.

Edited by Klavice on Nov 2nd 2021 at 12:25:31 PM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#61749: Nov 2nd 2021 at 12:55:00 PM

[up]MBs can be out-gambitted, be it by another MB or someone else. It probably depends both on how badly they were tricked (could they have predicted and prevented it) and how they respond to it (no big VB or be able to recover and have a good response to it later).

Would Dr. Ava Paige count for the movies too?

Also, sorry to hear about your uncle Klavice.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 2nd 2021 at 1:13:07 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#61750: Nov 2nd 2021 at 1:11:48 PM

Sorry to hear that Klavice and yes, that's exactly what happened to General Hummel.


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