During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
That's mainly Triandra's thing, while technically her allies can use nightmares, Triandra is the one conjuring those nightmares with the Heroes under them and old enemies back like Surtr and Hell. Maybe Freyja can do it too, but she never shows it, she mainly fights summoning clones of herself and attacks straight-up not really using nightmares. Also it's worth noting despite following orders, Triandra did have to rely on her power and cunning to keep the Order of Heroes busy and away from realizing there real plans, which she does excellently unlike Plumeria who did seem reliant on Triandra in making the plan work.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Nov 1st 2021 at 9:36:31 AM
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
The nightmares themselves, not only does it really mess with the Heroes multiple times throughout, but had Peony not intervene against them with her powers, the Heroes would be trap in them. Triandra exploited their fears and specifically crafted each of them to be as effective as possible, tailoring them on some of the most dire moments during their arcs, like Surtr invasion or Hel casting her death curse, or nearly tricking them into believing Veronica and Bruno betrayed them. Heck even when learning about the nightmares, they still felt so real that the Heroes still almost fall for them despite being aware it was an illusion.
Before you ask, having the powers alone is not enough to do that, she still need to rely on her own capabilities. It's not like a press of a button where she just cast it and it works. As seen during the Chapter focus on Plumeria, the effect of a nightmare depends on how well it's crafted and if it works specifically on the target so Triandra had to use her capabilities and intellect to make them as efficient as they were. She actually could've wipe them if Peony wasn't around and I already mention why she was hesitate to fight her.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Nov 1st 2021 at 10:22:13 AM
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - GiselleGot one now, too:
What's the work?
The King is a 2019 film that's a loose Adaptation of Shakespeare's plays Henry IV and Henry V starring Timothy Chalamet as Henry, better known then as Prince Hal...a drunken layabout whose father intends to pass him over for the throne in favor of his more diligent little brother. Henry, however, wins renown by killing rebellion leader Percy Hotspur and proceeds to both fix his father's errors and garner a peace...
And then war with France seems inevitable...but the one behind things?
William Gascoigne
Who is William Gascoigne?
The King's chief justice. Gascoigne is one of Henry's closest advisers, pushing him for and guiding him to a war with France. Knowing that there is a huge disunity in England, Gascoigne believes that war with France is the only true way to unite the kingdom (and possibly enrich himself at the time). In order to do this, Gascoigne manufactures insults, faking an insulting gift of tennis balls for Henry's coronation...two nobles also get approached by French agents and are uncovered, resulting in their beheading, Henry coldly calling them an "advance party to Hell" to make way for all the Frenchmen he intends to send.
And Gascoigne? Turns out to have manufactured an entire plot, sending an assassin so the man can fail, who was sent by Charles VI of France, supposedly...all the plots? Gascoigne. And oh, does it work. Henry sails to France, and at the famed battle of Agincourt, the French are defeated and the Dauphin is killed...Henry confronts Charles VI.
Charles? Capitulates, names Henry his heir and offers the hand of his daughter, Catherine of Valois. However, Catherine later speaks blunt to Henry, that there was no gift and no plot, making Henry realize Gascoigne is behind all of this. Henry confronts Gascoigne, who plays dumb, until Henry screams at him to "stop the fucking charade!" And Gascoigne?
"I brought you peace! Out there is your peace!" Gascoigne protests he did nothing but what Henry wanted. Now England is strong and united....and everyone knows Henry's glory.
A furious Henry? Draws a knife and fatally stabs Gascoigne, ending the film telling Catherine she must always speak the truth to him...
And as history tells us, Henry will die in only a few short years, leaving behind a 2 year old son who will prove a weak ruler, to be overthrown by the York family...
But this is a story for another day.
Mitigating issues?
Gascoigne is intelligent, very personable and pleasant...and he fakes an entire plot to throw Henry into a war so England can be strengthened as a result. He fakes an insulting gift, fakes an assassination plot and the only thing that exposes him is Catherine at the end....and only because she saw her dad surprised when he heard the news of the murder attempt because she knew him well enough to know the shock was genuine...
Gascoigne doesn't even break down when confronted. In fact? He defends himself, shouting down a King that he did what was necessary to bring him that peace he wanted, before kneeling to Henry and declaring his loyalty...
I need to note that Gascoigne starts a war that kills thousands. He manipulates loads of people, and enriches himself in the process but nothing indicates "enrich myself" and "for England's benefit" are mutually exclusive. And he does seem to be genuinely loyal to Henry and care for him, even if he'll use him.
Conclusion?
Giving a solid keeper to W Illiam Gascoigne.
Yes to Gascoigne, thematically appropriate keep considering how recent the other film with Chalamet as royalty was.
Yes to William Gascoigne ("What's that smell... it's BLUD!!!") I will take this opportunity to plug Plague of Gripes' Bloodborne animation.
I think the Zookeeper is fine to keep for the setting and the episode. He's a silly, campy supervillain. He's not Hans Gruber or even Hank Scorpio, but I think he makes it.
I remember him. My only hesitancy is that I feel like Catherine would've been bound to bring up the reasons for war at one point sooner or later but thats probably way too fridge logicky of me.
William.
For that to be the case, I feel Gascoigne would need to know she would act very much unlike a typical princess of the era, that she would be present to see her father's genuine surprise and that she'd be speaking openly and freely to Henry with no regard for how he might react....
Given she has some bizarrely anachronistic views on monarchy legitimacy in the film...
Here's my write-up for Líf.
Líf is an alternate version of Alfonse and a general in the Realm of the Dead. Having lost his little sister Sharena and his entire kingdom of Askr, Líf joined forces with Thrasir, an alternate version of Veronica who has also lost her country and family. Together, they serve Hel in hopes of restoring their people, vowing to remain close friends should they win the war. Líf retains his strategic mind from when he was idealistic, as shown when he creates a trap to crush the Askrian forces by predicting that they would show up where he was expected to be. Upon being defeated later, Líf regrets the situation he was forced into, requesting Alfonse to not become like him.
Everyone look at my sandboxI notice Audrey II on YMMV.Little Shop Of Horrors is listed with the gendered Magnificent Bitch redirect. Could we use "Bastard" instead since Twoey is more Ambiguous Gender? The scenes calling it a "girl" are before it's revealed to be sentient and productions cast their voice as any gender, usually a male.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.Watched a decent Chinese medieval film with a pretty cool villain.
What's the work?
Mulan Legend is a 2020 Chinese Film based on the ballad of Fa Mulan.
During the reign of the Northern Wei Dynasty, the new emperor was still unstable, and the nomadic tribe, Ruoran, was eyeing Wei. In order to restrain her, the princess made peace with Northern Liang but was unexpectedly kidnapped by her fierce general, Mian Ertu. However, the princess is taken hostage by Mian Ertu, who proposes a humiliating pact to surrender ten cities to Wei. With the deadline of two days to cede the city and land approaching, whether the raiding team will be able to rescue the princess and protect the Wei Dynasty.
Who is General Mian Ertu ?
The charismatic and intelligent leader of the Rouran tribe. After starvation and cold forced his people to have to find food to brave the conditions. He became a conqueror along with his brother Chaka to try and help them and has been leading an attempt to capture the much more fertile Wei territory.
Using a mole in the Wei tribe, and discovering the princess of the Wei tribe is to marry another tribe prince to secure an alliance against them. Mian has his soldiers lure them into a trap by using his men to dig paths to surround them. Well using archers to block them off and pick them off. Mulan and crew arrive and help and end up killing his brother Chaka. Mian rushes to save him and has his archers use their arrows to counter the attacks from Mulan's archer before snatching the princess away.
Mian now sends an ultimatum. The handover of 10 Wei cities to his people or the death of the Princess after two days. To show he's not bluffing. He states he will execute ten civilians every day they're late.
Anyway, Mian does the funeral rites for his brother. Genuinely aggrieved at his passing and saddened he won't even be buried at his home. He swears revenge against Mulan for killing him and learns she is coming to rescue.
Anyway, he tells his guards to guard the princess in the attic. Anyway, a mole that the heroes have tells them that she is there and they go to rescue her. Only to be lured into a trap....and have a member killed by the fake princess. Mian was fully aware that Mulan would come to rescue her so fed fake information and a body double as he suspected a spy in his guards. Now he could both eliminate him and kill his brother's killer. As he says they are on opposite sides of a war and their decisions are understandable but Chaka was still his beloved brother and for that, he must avenge him.
Anyway another of Mulan's gang sacrifices himself to let the others escape. (This is pretty common in this film). Anyway new plan. They find the princess and make her seem like a Rouran soldier to escape. Well, Mulan masquerades as her so she can try and kill Mian.
Mian comes to her cell and the two argue and give a supriosnally sincere conversation about how he doesn't enjoy violence or war and seeing his people die but this is perhaps the only way they could stop the starvation and death of his people. Even Mulan admits he's not entirely wrong...
Anyway well, his back is turned she tried to knife him by the notices the knife glint and instead slams it into the wall. She then runs and the chase begins. Mian proves a badass, taking on and defeating various heroes (using some clever tactics like grabbing the bladed staff and launching it at the face of the wielder. Or during array, kicking a guy in the face to off-balance him)
Anyhow he and Mulan and her last friend engage and he's able to take them on and nearly win. Only being stopped by her friend sacrificing himself by going in front of the blade. And Mulan takes out a portion of the blade that's sticking out of him to instead stab Mian in the throat. Ending his threat.
Magnificent?
Mian is calm, badass, and charismatic. He genuinely loves his people and is remarkably clever. From his use of spies and moles. To leaking false information just to lure her into a trap. To his awesome final fight where he takes on and beats nearly every hero on his own. Only being beaten by a lucky strike. Pretty cool. Says I.
Bastard?
He is threatening the Wei territory and even is willing to execute 10 civilians per day but again this isn't for the lolz. His people are in trouble and starving as he tells her. He doesn't enjoy violence but instead views it as a means to an end. Like compared to villains from similar Mulan films (Prince Menghdu, Bori Khan, Shan Yu) who are usually evil assholes with nothing else their..... Theirs a lot of depth and humanity to him. He truly loved his brother too
Conclusion?
Don't see any reason for him not to count.
Edited by miraculous on Nov 1st 2021 at 5:20:48 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

For Triandra I'm not sure. I'm not getting much cunning just following her bosses orders and using her powers. Is the fact that she's able to resurrect other foes unique to her or something others could do and it's seen as unusual?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid