During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Grace.
Alright, I think we'll have at least one more Ravok is looking into but with Lighty's recent CM contribution to Legend of Galactic Heroes I think we've got another for this end. From Reinhard's faction:
Who is Ulrich Kesler? What has he done?
A man hailing from the planet Kleingelt, he caught Reinhard's attention while a member of the Military Police by cleverly saving a woman who smashed a portrait of Kaiser Rudolf from being tortured to death by declaring her insane, pitting the blame on the neighbor who snitched by stating her crime of doing nothing. Currently listed MB Grimmleshausen entrusts Kesler with his book of dirty little secrets on the High Nobles and even while hated by ranking members of the Empire Kesler manages to get them to Reinhard, strengthening their side and eventually lighting the fires to defeat them in the Lippstadt war.
Along the way Kesler shows himself a charming, excellent operator and when Reinhard plans to withdraw food from colony worlds to stretch the supply lines of the invading Free Planets Alliance he's the one who talks the men into supporting the cold plan, ensuring them their people won't be left to starve. Afterwards he assists in the annihilation of Braunschweig and his forces, going on to become Chief of Military Police and issues a series of arrests and executions to root out the corruption of the Goldenbaum Dynasty to begin a new era.
Completely devoted to Reinhard he helps him conquer almost the entire galaxy and under the Goldenlöwe Dynasty, Kesler becomes a well-intentioned but brutal autocratic supporter who even ensures the suicide of a man who lost family on Westerland, something the Kaiser found himself too haunted by to punish the would-be assailant for. He goes on to torture captured Terraists to ensure the continued success of his nation, sniffs out and crushes traitors and ends the series being honored by the dying Reinhard, who officially promotes Kesler to Fleet Admiral before passing away.
Actions and personality?
He's a meticulous Secret Police leader with a benevolent twist who despises the elitist Goldenbaum Dynasty and fights well willing to use dirty tricks to make sure they never surface again. Kesler is also a charmer capable of selling leery men on Reinhard's plans and plays a crucial role in stopping the Alliance advance.
Mitigating factors?
He's sent on a pointless search for the kidnapped Kaiser Erwin Josef II but he's just doing his job investigating, is respected for his honor and intelligence by Reinhard and never treated like a fool at any point.
Verdict?
Makes it in well.
Greetings, villain aficionadi, I bid you welcome to part 1 of my Halloween double-bill. I hope this fills you with the best kind of nostalgic rush!
What's the work?
In my experience, there are two types of ‘90s kids – those that can remember being terrified out of their minds by Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark, and goddamn liars. These collections of creepy folklore by Alvin Schwartz were staples of elementary schools back then, and the nightmarish illustrations by Stephen Gammell, often much scarier than the story itself, were immensely controversial among parents. Kids, as you might imagine, adored them. Our offering today comes from a story in the third and last book of the series, the haunting “Maybe You Will Remember.”
Who are the hotel manager, clerk, and doctor? What do they do?
June and Rosemary Gibbs are a mother and daughter vacationing in Paris when June falls seriously and mysteriously ill. The hotel calls in its in-house physician to care for her, and he asks Rosemary a simple favor – to take a trip across town to get some medicine from the doctor’s house. As she gets in the cab, the doctor whispers something to the driver, and thus begins the most obnoxiously long cab ride in history, several hours in each direction, with Rosemary sure the cab doubles back on itself multiple times. Upon returning with the medicine, the clerk repeatedly informs Rosemary that he does not recognize her or have any record of her and her mother being guests there. When she demands to see the manager, the clerk summons him and he takes her to her room… which now looks completely different and in which someone else is staying. As Rosemary feels she’s losing her mind, the manager calmly reassures her that she simply went to the wrong hotel…
An epilogue reveals that, years later, Rosemary tracked down a former employee of the hotel and got the truth out of them – as it turns out, the doctor quickly realized that June would be dead within hours. She had bubonic plague, the dreaded Black Death of the Middle Ages. News that the Black Death had returned to the heart of Paris would obviously result in mass hysteria, and to avoid that, the doctor, manager, and clerk formed a plan. The doctor bribed the cabbie into taking the longest, most convoluted way to his house humanly possible, and then simply waited for June to die. When this happened, the hotel’s workmen removed the body and quickly changed the room’s paint and furniture. All the hotel’s other employees were threatened with termination if they revealed the secret, and even the police and press were given, ahem, “handsome compensation” to not investigate the matter further. Thus Rosemary gets closure, if horrifying closure, but the narrative ends there, with no further elaboration if she sought payback on the hotel staff.
How do they operate?
This story is widely considered one of the most chilling in the series on the sheer Mundanger factor – there are no monsters or serial killers here, just an almost-perfect gaslighting plan in the name of the greater good. The hotel staff never actually kill anyone, but what they do is very much a grandiose form of psychological abuse, I’d say.
Mitigating factors?
I should mention that it’s noted one of their motives in trying to prevent the mass hysteria is that they know the hotel itself will lose a ton of money, which I’m concerned might make them too petty. As well I’d also be remiss not to note than another character from this anthology, the cannibal butcher Samuel Blunt, was cut from CM long ago on the basis of the story being too short, just a few paragraphs on two pages. This one’s more than twice as long, but since it was an issue there I thought I’d bring it up.
Verdict?
All up to you.
Edited by HamburgerTime on Oct 30th 2021 at 6:43:29 AM
Yes to Kesler. Now for my own writeup.
- Death and Taxes song "Rest Employed
": Fate is the head of the afterlife's death department. Calculating and brilliant, Fate continues improving the efficiency of the department, constantly iterating upon it to ensure it keeps up with humanity. Throughout the song, Fate periodically issues creative threats to the newest undead employee under his command, maintaining the loyalty of his employees through fear and keeping them from interfering with his work, and argues that human lives are worthless due to their short lifespans, assuaging possible guilt about human suffering. All the while, Fate begins subtly hinting that he may want to destroy mankind and end his misery, deftly hiding his intentions and never letting his calm demeanor slip away from him. In the end, Fate keeps his goals under wraps as he welcomes yet more pawns to his service.
for Grace. She convinced someone to willingly be a decoy for her. That's SUPER magnificent.
Kessler
Ok. I have a EP from a manga that I did for CM too.
Setting?
Tropical Citron follows the story of a journalist named Soma in March Town, a city that is under the control of the drug lord James Isshi, who is actually a demon known as The Rabbit.
Our protagonist allies with the daughter of the former matriarch witch of the town to try to stop him, with the aid of our candidate.
Who is The Horse?
A demon from the same dimension as The Rabbit, the Horse appears as the driver to take a reclutant Soma out of the town at orders of the witch Mako. However, The Horse guiltrips Soma into acknowledging that it was his choice to come to March Town in first place, making him stay and continue with his role as The Chosen One.
The Horse is the creature that caused the coincidence that Soma's sexfriend found the insane and frail body of a investigator that lost his sanity into investigating the Rabbit's weakness, exposing her—a kind hearted woman that just was trying her best to take care of a injured man—to his attention, but also protecting her from direct harm, frustrating the Rabbit's anger.
Following the Horse's plan, Soma kills Mugino to extract the silver bullets to use them during the Festival.
The Horse's followers, the Jabberwocky, seduce the Rabbit's Human guards to knock them out during sex to give Soma a chance to follow the Rabbit and kill him.
Sucessful, Mako returns to become the rightful matriarch of the town and things start to improve.
In the epilogue, the Horse continues to be Mako's loyal driver, revealing that he lied to her about Soma's early death. Then, they both reflexionate about it, how Soma was the spirit of the era personified and he had to die there.
He is a bastard?
He manipulates a young man into risking his life and sacrifices a loyal man to ensure his victory. Plus, his actions drag a genuinely innocent woman into a situation where she had no stakes, risking her life. Like, he put her in the sight of the Rabbit himself, who visited her personally.
Smart?
The Big Good that planned everything. He is unable to directly influence others due to his respect for free will, something that the Rabbit directly loathes, but he manipulates them to fulfill his goals.
He completely outsmart his rival, causing his death and freeing March Town.
Charm?
A soft spoken driver that convinces the selfish Soma into risking his life for a greater goal. The Horse is even seen petting actual horses during his discussion with the Rabbit. His relationship to Mako is one of mutual respect and even he hiding the fact of Soma's death is caused by genuine concern, laughing when Mako reveals that she already imagined that and discussing with her about Soma, treating his memory with respect.
Verdict?
You decide.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 30th 2021 at 11:06:46 AM
Watch me destroying my country
to Grace, Kesler, the manager, the clerk, the doctor and the horse.
Let's get this party started!
What's the work?
Trick 'R Treat is a splendid Halloween horror anthology film, set in a little town on All Hallows Eve...haunted by "Sam," the spirit of Halloween...now, Sam is there to make sure folks follow the rules of the season, with lethal consequences should they fail to do so...meanwhile, multiple townsfolk are focused on in this, with their tales being told...and one? Meet Laurie, of Surprise Party
who is Laurie?
Dressed as Little Red Riding Hood, Laurie is a 22 year old, shy sweetheart who is out with her wild big sister Danielle and their friend sMaria and Janet. Laurie is the baby of the group and hasn't yet had her first time...her friends and sister are pressuring her into it in time for the big party and Laurie is sent to get a date...
So Laurie is posing around, a bit reluctantly to find the right man, and sure enough comes the big bad wolf...a mysterious man in a mask and vampire fangs is killing women on Halloween night and centers on Laurie...who seems to lead him on to the woods as he attacks her...
Cut to the surprise party where a bunch of the ladies have their dates at hand...Danielle is a bit worried about Laurie wheeeen...the "Vampire" killer is chucked in...and Laurie is after, annoyed she had to deal with him...the man turns out to be the local school principal Steve Wilkins, who's a serial killer in his spare time....Maria and Janet are a touch apologetic...
See...Laurie is a werewolf. And she and her friends and family lure in "dates" to eat on the holiday...Laurie was out there to lure her first victim and easily lured in and disabled Wilkins, shattering his leg. As the girls begin to dance happily...they transform, shedding their skins to let loose the beast and devour the corpses of their dates, while Laurie handles Steve...telling him "what big eyes you have" before biting into his throat as he screams....and Sam watches with approval as the werewolves feast, Danielle proudly looking at her little sister before the girls leave the town in human form again.
Mitigating issues?
Sweet, innocent Laurie? Is actually a devious mastermind...she's out there to lure in a victim to eat and when Steve focuses on her, she has him hook, line and sinker. The funny thing? Laurie's niceness is not remotely feigned. She really is a shy, sweet girl to most people and while Danielle's a little overbearing, the two love one another dearly.
And even if she got a serial killer as her first, Laurie is still trying to just find someone suitable and raises no objections at all to her friends and sister eating innocent people. She's only vaguely annoyed they encouraged her so hard and she got attacked by Steve, to which Maria and Janet are "tee hee, our bad, sorry, but here you are!"
...Laurie goes at it like a predator, too. Granted Wilkins has it coming, but she really lets the killer instinct shine.
Conclusion?
Happy yes.
Yes to the Horse and Laurie.
Has anyone from the DC Animated Movie Universe been discussed here?
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadHey I just saw The Lincoln Lawyer, excellent film with a great keeper but there's a small inaccuracy with his write up, the case Roulet hires him for is an attempted rape and the victim is still alive to testify against him. Here's the fixed write up.
- Magnificent Bastard: Mickey Haller is an Amoral Attorney who happily defends the guilty and will employ any legal trick to get them cleared. After an attempted rape and murder, psychopath Louis Roulet sways Haller into defending him, whereupon Haller learns that not only is Roulet guilty, but he is responsible for murdering a previous client of Haller's pleaded guilty to. In order to stop Roulet while still satisfying legal ethics, Haller plants fake testimony in a perjuring jailhouse snitch so he can discredit him along with the other witnesses against Roulet, but ensures the police hear the testimony so they may arrest Roulet for the previous murder, winning the case while still bringing Roulet down. When Roulet goes after Haller's ex-wife and daughter, Haller ensures a group of bikers he knows are waiting for him, with the only instruction that Roulet end in "the hospital, not the morgue."
