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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#61526: Oct 30th 2021 at 11:06:37 AM

Yes to Montoni and the Brain Gremlin.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#61527: Oct 30th 2021 at 11:08:08 AM

Eager Yes to Brain Gremlin and his amazing singing voice!

Also naturally advocating that "posthumous/offscreen" be allowed on this trope even though by my standards, they basically already are—Le Bail is one case and while we do see him, it sort of falls into "either way" category since he appears for a literal second to just nod his head in respect to the character after a film of presence, scheming, and personality details lmao, and Goro Maki from Shin Godzilla is pretty much entirely offscreen and long dead, too, so I think the precedent is mostly there and all I'm trying to do is get that same lenience on CM.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#61528: Oct 30th 2021 at 11:08:43 AM

And a yes to the Brain Gremlin and why didn't I think of him???

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#61529: Oct 30th 2021 at 11:09:18 AM

I do concur though these characters should get the personality too.

Like on cm. If we just get the deeds without the personality I would be a no.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#61530: Oct 30th 2021 at 11:10:45 AM

Yeah, I get j's concerns and I'd like more than just "They were smart" but I think it's fair if like Le Bail they get charm established by adherence to fair play or Maki and his goals and beliefs established so we've got something to be impressed with in addition to just a characteristic. IIRC the Bebop character is stated to have been a badass pirate but again I'll have to double check. Shouldn't take long fortunately, it was a short game.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#61531: Oct 30th 2021 at 11:12:04 AM

There is something else to consider with Magnificent Bastard, there is also the "charm" part of the criteria without having seen the character that might be a lot harder to establish, just my thoughts though.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#61532: Oct 30th 2021 at 11:13:32 AM

BRIGHT LIGHT BRIGHT LIGHT BRIGHT LIGHT

...That's Gremlin for "Yes."

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#61533: Oct 30th 2021 at 11:16:12 AM

[tup] to Artorius, Montoni and a surprised one to the Brain Gremlin.

Switch to an abstain on Mariner.

Happy birthday, Timber.

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#61534: Oct 30th 2021 at 11:18:43 AM

That was already acknowledged Ordeaux...

Also any votes? We all know what to look for in candidates.

Edited by 43110 on Oct 30th 2021 at 6:21:32 PM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#61535: Oct 30th 2021 at 11:21:34 AM

Yes Ordeaux that was my concern with my post.

[tup]Brain Gremlin.

Missed that, happy birthday Timber!

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#61536: Oct 30th 2021 at 11:22:15 AM

Happy birthday Timber.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#61537: Oct 30th 2021 at 11:22:16 AM

Oh sorry I must have missed that.

Happy birthday Timber.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Oct 30th 2021 at 11:22:27 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#61538: Oct 30th 2021 at 11:50:21 AM

Happy Birthday Timber as well! Also, Happy Birthday to anyone I recently missed too!

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#61539: Oct 30th 2021 at 11:57:21 AM

Fuck me, I can't believe I missed the discussion

[tup]Brain Gremlin & Montani

Happy Birthday Timber

so here's that Faun writeup

  • Pan's Labyrinth: The Faun is a Trickster Mentor to Ofelia, the reincarnation of Princess Moanna of the Underworld, who seeks to return her to her royal roots. Giving her a series of tasks, all of which put her in danger, The Faun gives her the final task to see if she would give her brothers blood. With Ofelia choosing to put her brother over her, resulting in her death, she passes the Secret Test of Character, with the Faun congratulating her as she takes her rightful place as princess of the underworld.

Edited by nwotyzal on Oct 30th 2021 at 12:00:50 PM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Remnant43 The Salesman’s Stolen Mask from In Your Walls Since: Sep, 2020 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Salesman’s Stolen Mask
#61541: Oct 30th 2021 at 12:16:17 PM

[tup] to the Brain Gremlin, the friendliest genocidal maniac I've ever seen.

Skyward bound and adrift in time
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#61542: Oct 30th 2021 at 12:16:50 PM

Happy bday and happy yes to the Brain Goblin!

For me? Expect another classic gothic heroine, and a certain one or two in the spirit of Halloween

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#61543: Oct 30th 2021 at 12:42:14 PM

A late [tup] the Faun.

[tup] Montoni.

[tup] The Brain.

Got my Bloodrayne EP ready for either tonight or tomorrow. Just giving a heads up as it's in the 2000 word category since I'm covering the games and comics.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#61544: Oct 30th 2021 at 12:49:14 PM

Since you have time, I'd advise seeing what you can edit down. Remember, we don't need every deed

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#61545: Oct 30th 2021 at 12:51:12 PM

I did edit it down (in fact I'm still working on trims), keeping it to the essential stuff.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#61546: Oct 30th 2021 at 12:52:39 PM

Any smaller bits we could maybe sum up with "Rayne continues operating efficiently as usual" just to avoid redundancy?

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#61547: Oct 30th 2021 at 12:56:19 PM

Yeah, you don't have to worry about things like that.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#61548: Oct 30th 2021 at 1:26:30 PM

[tup] to Brain

Hey guys, so I’ve got a candidates from a movie I saw on the plane coming back to Honolulu. The movie is called SAS: Red Notice so lets talk about it

What’s The Work?

SAS Red Notice is a 2021 action thriller film directed by Magnus Martens, based on the novel of the same name. The basic is this Ruby Rose’s character, Grace Lewis, hijacks a train on its way to France holding the people aboard the train hostage to get 500 Million ransom from the Britgaz gas company. She also happens to be the candidate that I’ll be discussing.

Who Is She? What Has She Done?

Grace Lewis is a member of her fathers private military company who was hired by SAS commander George Lewis to clear out settlements in the Gveli Pass in the country Georgia to make way for Britgaz to make a Pipeline in that area. However one of the villagers recorded Black Swan and Clements burning down their village resulting in Clements killing Grace’s father and Black Swan so that they wouldn’t expose him for his part in the massacre.

However Grace is able to escape from Clements clutches and would respond to her father’s death by infiltrating a train traveling from London and France where she and her soldiers would hijack the train while it was in the middle of the tunnel where she would hold everyone onboard hostage threatening to kill them all unless Britgaz would give Grace and her crew 500 million in pounds for their work in Georgia.

She would also plant a Mole in the SAS, Declan Smith, where she has Smith tell her about their plans and movements allowing her to remain one step ahead of the SAS, performing a counter-attack when the SAS led by Clements tries to kill her and would learn that one of Smith’s co-workers Tom Buckingham is a trained SAS operative and was on the train. Grace would later figures out that Tom has a girlfriend named Dr. Sophie Hart and would use her as a personal hostage against Tom.

When Clements comes to the train to negotiate and hopefully kill Grace, Grace reveals that she’s well aware that Clements doesn’t care that she kills the hostages so she planted bombs on the tunnel pipeline rigging the tunnel to blow up which the blast radius would kill Clements no matter how far he fled. This would force Clements to comply with Grace’s demands and give her 500 million to save his own skin, while secretly recording Clements gleefully telling Grace that no one will ever listen to her.

Sure enough once Clements hands over 500 million to Grace, Grace releases all of the hostages, albeit have them all wear hoodies so that everyone will think that one of them is Grace blending in the crowd to escape, while Grace would make her true escape by traveling through the pipeline while taking Sophie with her which Grace would wound to keep Tom distracted to heal Sophie while Grace escapes.

Once Grace escapes, she blows up the pipeline destroying the tunnel and train, killing Clements and his men, though the hostages were all able to escape in time to not get killed while having uploaded Clements confession to the public, exposing Britgaz and his bosses involvements in the massacres in Georgia. However Tom would eventually catch up to Grace, where the two would battle it out leading to Tom being the victor in their fight before killing Grace when she says a "Not So Different" Remark to Tom.

Is She Intelligent? Is She Charismatic?

As an experienced mercenary, Grace Lewis has proven herself to be exceptionally brilliant and charismatic from having one of her servants be a willing decoy to distract Clements and his forces while she escapes, orchestrating the hijacking of a train while convincing the remaining Black Swans to help her with her plan, to planting a mole in the SAS to remain one step ahead of the SAS.

It is through her meticulous planning that Grace is able to successfully get 500 million pounds from Clements before she screws him over buy blowing up the tunnel to kill him and his forces and expose his and the Britgaz corruption to the world while she finds another way to escape and even when she gets defeated by Tom, Grace never looses her composure and shows no fear at the prospect of getting killing merely giving Tom a "Not So Different" Remark to Tom.

What’s The Competition Like?

Grace Lewis is by far the most cunning, charming, and active villain the movie with no one coming close to her level of brilliance, with her father getting killing fairly early in the movie, Declan Smith being completely subordinate to Grace’s plans, Tom Buckingham being too much of a good guy who only killed bad people in the movie, George Clements being too much of an atrocious scumbag, while the prime minister and Britgaz are smug assholes who are not even hands on enough. Yeah Grace Lewis clears it here.

Is She a Bitch? Is She Too Much of a Bitch?

Well, Grace did partake in one of the massacres in Georgia, hijacks a train full of innocent people willing to kill them al if her demands aren’t met already killing a few to make her point clear, blows up the tunnel and train to kill Clements and his forces even after her demands are met, and nearly kills the hero’s Love Interest. I’d say she definitely hits the bitch mark.

That said Grace does have her admirable qualities. Grace is never shown to be needlessly sadistic such as during the village massacre Grace only just shoot at the villagers not burning them alive like some of Clements men, she Wouldn't Hurt a Child as she spares the children in the massacre despite Clements wanting them dead as well, and lets Tom help a little girl escape from the hostage situation.

After her demands are met she does let her hostages go (granted she had them wear hoods to confuse her enemies on whether one of them is her or not in disguised), only blowing up the tunnel and train once the hostages are safe and far away and really only Clements and his men, who really have it coming.

While she claims that she has never loved anyone in her life she does seem to genuinely care for her father and brother, with part of her reason for causing the hijacking and screwing Clements was to avenge his death, and when her brother stays behind to fight Tom to allow Grace to escape, Grace tells him that their father would be proud. I do not think Grace is too much of a bitch to not count.

Final Verdict

I’ll leave it up for you guys.

Edited by G-Editor on Oct 29th 2021 at 10:27:13 PM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#61550: Oct 30th 2021 at 2:09:53 PM

[tup]Grace

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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