During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Actually looking that over again... Lore can you dial it back with some of these jokes? I know you say them in good humour and I get it's annoying to see the character brought up a few times but publicly telling interests "What you said makes me laugh my ass off" feels like it's making someone into a pariah and I don't appreciate it.
I understand the issue. Nonetheless, that seemed to be less personal and alarming than the genuine anger and frustration I see vented on here sometimes. I remember some people getting really mad at the Deltarune stuff over at the CM forum for example.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.For the record, I would like to apologize for my own incivility
.
Humor Mode exists.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 13th 2021 at 5:56:06 AM
I mean for what it's worth Lore I forgive you, I'd just like to say that like it genuinely kinda hurt especially when I had fucked up so badly already.
But, good on you for understanding.
43 puts things very well on all ends.
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Oct 13th 2021 at 3:04:30 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"Oh I grasp you didn't mean anything and I know we have angry outbursts here, lord knows I'm still working on my own temper in that regard. It's more the layout what with your post following interest's and some wording which looks negative kinda lining up in a perfect storm that just doesn't look friendly. I mean no attack on your character saying it just as I didn't regarding the folks who gave us the suggestions to cut the manager, I just think there are steps we can all be taking here to have a more amicable social experience on the thread.
It is sometimes easy to forget that despite how often we converse with one another here, I don't actually know who any of you people are. The internet often breeds a false sense of familiarity where you think you can act with complete strangers as you would with close friends.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Got some papers to finish but in the meantime here's one (1) sorcerous boy:
- Blue Öyster Cult's "The Alchemist" from The Symbol Remains: The Alchemist is a brilliant Evil Sorcerer with a grudge. When a King killed his father for a crime he was innocent of, the Alchemist swore vengeance upon the King's entire bloodline; from there on out, the Alchemist proceeded to gain the secret of eternal life to carry out his revenge. Killing every member of the bloodline once they reach a certain age, the Alchemist makes it seem like an accident every time, so successful he convinces the family that they are cursed. When the last member of the bloodline finally foils the Alchemist before he can destroy the entire line, the Alchemist proves defiant in the face of death, declaring his everlasting hatred with his last breath.
Going off to bed now so even though there's not been a candidate to vote on I'll say this before I head off for the night: It's a good lesson I needed to learn about being more careful when skimming and scanning through a discussion to gauge the key points about a candidate and I appreciate that my apology was accepted. Embarassing mistake to make merely about a week away from my 1 year anniversary on here but sometimes you just mess up.
In other news I've got an EP coming fairly soon from a fun, cheesy work that already has a keeper so that'll be a little bit of enjoyable redemption on my end.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"@lore Unfortunately, some people take this fun little website a bit too seriously at times. I won't point out any names, and on which forums.
Everyone look at my sandboxWelp, anyways off from all that. I promised this yesterday since I felt the character did not get a fair shake when he was brought up. For the record as well, while I still don't feel comfortable enough to play more of Blizzard's game right now, I'm come to feel fine troping their works since doing this effort post doesn't earn Bobby Kotick any money.
A quick forward on the candidate. In the Wacraft universe, the mythical Titans gifted five dragonflights powerful magic to help guard the world of Azeroth and her people. This included the Red, Blue, Green, Bronze, and Black. In tradition with Dark Is Evil, the Black Dragonflight was chosen to be the evil one the players face off against ever since the whispers of the Old Gods drove its leader Neltharion, better known as Deathwing, to do some very naughty things that earned him a place on the Complete Monster list. By extension, the rest of the Black Dragonflight were corrupted by the Old Gods as well, at least until the Cataclysm expansion. When Deathwing tried to destroy the world, an ambitious red dragon named Rheastrasza tried to find a way to purify the Blacks. This led to the story of the Badlands zone where she imprisoned a black dragon named Nyxondra and stole her eggs for experiments. Using a Titan device, Rhea fused together one of Nyxondra's eggs, a wild egg, and a dead whelp into a completely uncorrupted black dragon egg. Deathwing finds out about this and kills Rhea, but the egg is sent off far away to be protected. Yet things never quite work out that easy.
Who is Wrathion?
A few months later, the egg is stolen from the protection of the Red Dragonflight by agents of thieves' and assassins' guild Ravenholdt. When a rogue adventurer and the red dragon Mostrasz follow the trail to the manor, they discover the egg has already hatched and the newborn whelp has taken control of the operation and named himself the Black Prince. After discovering the rogue and Mostrasz have snuck all the way to his resting place, Wrathion lures them into a trap and reveals that he was conscious and aware even in his egg and understood he would essentially be born a prisoner. After declaring neither the Blacks nor Reds would keep him from freedom, he has his second Fahrad break the red dragon's legs before sending him back as a message. The player, on the other hand, he offers a job to wipe out the last remaining black dragons on Azeroth in exchange for powerful weapons. Wrathion got a lot done in his few short months of life and already had his agents track down two of remaining Blacks and gives the rogue vital intel to hunt and kill them. This eventually leads to Wrathion sending the rogue to fight and kill Deathwing in his raid encounter, and Wrathion used a shard of Deathwing's jaw to create a pair of legendary daggers for his champion. There is one last bit of business, however, as Fahrad was the black dragon that took the egg from the reds and Wrathion has him executed as well after it's shown he's as corrupted as the rest.
Now, to his knowledge, the last black dragon on Azeroth, Wrathion flies off after heralding the player as the defender the world needs. A little while later, he starts getting visions of Azeroth's destruction at the hands of the Burning Legion, and travels to the newly unveiled land of Pandaria to manipulate events to ensure a swift end to the current war between the Horde and Alliance. Knowing that neither will survive a war with the Legion while divided, Wrathion seeks to end the war by having one side win and dominate the other. To do this, he hires adventurers from both sides of the conflict and swears loyalty to their cause, not telling them he's working both sides and pushing one faction closer to victory as the war advances. In the first major patch, he has players kill members of the opposite faction and eventually the leader of the rival invasion force to have the players prove to him that he's backing the right side.
When the mogu Lei Shen, the Thunder King, returns, Wrathion turns his attention to him for immense threat he poses. Met again playing taking council with the human prince Anduin and the tauren paladin Dezco, he sends the player off to find the source of the Thunder King's power due to its connections to the Titans. After helping the player forge a weapon called the Crown of Heaven to be used against Lei Shen, Wrathion has them collect titan runestones to uncover the mogu's history and unearth Lei Shen's connection to the Titans. A final confrontation with Lei Shen leads to Wrathion eating his heart and absorbing the titan magic, revealing to Wrathion dark secrets that the player wouldn't fully discover for a few expansions. After creating a legendary cloak for his champion, the Pandaria arc ultimately leads to players of both factions overthrowing Horde warchief Garrosh Hellscream because he does some naughty things that even alienates his former allies. When Garrosh is overthrown, the Horde and Alliance make a temporary peace, which causes Wrathion to have a complete meltdown since he planned on the human king Varian to absorb the Horde. Acting as you would expect a two year old to, Wrathion is given a stern lecture on the nature of strength and wisdom by a random Pandaren bartender and flies off in huff promising he would leave nothing to chance again.
Having become Anduin's friend in the meantime, Wrathion attends Garrosh's trial and revealed later on to be the antagonist of the War Crimes novel which covers the events. Wrathion secretly allies with the bronze dragon Kairozdormu to free Garrosh and send him to an alternate timeline 35 years ago. He has Kairozdormu create alternate timeline versions to battle everyone at the trial while having secretly gathered up Garrosh's remaining allies to spring him in the chaos. When confronted about it by Anduin, Wrathion simply states that as the last of the Black Dragonflight it is his duty to protect Azeroth and knocks Anduin out and flies off. Wrathion had intended for Garrosh to unite the Horde from that timeline and have them help fight off the Burning Legion's next attack on Azeroth. Unfortunately for him, Kairozdormu began ranting that he would enslave countless Hordes from countless timelines for his own ambitions right in front of Garrosh, who promptly stabs him to death. Garrosh then sets out to finish his own vendettas leading to the rise of the Iron Horde and the Warlords of Draenor expansion. This in turn eventually spirals into the Gul'dan from that timeline doing some very naughty things and getting sent to main timeline Azeroth to usher in the Legion's invasion.
Having watched his plans spiral out of control, Wrathion sits out the Legion expansion to wander the world seeking to better understand the parting words of that random bartender from Pandaria. During this time of self reflection, the last Old God N'Zoth begins whispering to him and Wrathion knew that to mean it would soon set in motion its return. Realizing that helping to defeat N'Zoth would be the redemption he sought, he began traveling to great repositories of knowledge throughout Azeroth trying to find a way to destroy the Old Gods once and for all, all the while leaving behind notes for the player to follow in his footsteps and discover the information for their own uses as well. Still having loyal Blacktalon agents, they eventually relay to Wrathion the existence of one more uncorrupted black dragon. The dragon, named Ebyssian, was helping to protect the world and Wrathion grew to see him as a brother. Knowing N'Zoth would try to corrupt Ebyssian as well, Wrathion travels to the tower of Karazhan and discovers how to brew a potion that could free his brother from Old God corruption. Such does come to pass, and Wrathion uses the trail of notes he left behind to guide the player to the potion which in turns frees Ebyssian.
Eventually, Wrathion's studies allow him to finally make sense of the information he gained from eating Lei Shen's heart. He learned the ancient Titan device known as the Forge of Origination could be coded in such a way to specifically target N'Zoth and completely annihilate him. Going to meet with Magni Bronzebeard, the speaker for the Titan Azeroth, Wrathion had him set up a meeting with Anduin for the first time since Garrosh's trial. Anduin punches Wrathion and blames him for his father Varian's death in battle against the Legion, and a much older, wiser, and humbled Wrathion accepts the he deserved it. He then becomes the main advisor to both the Alliance and Horde in dealing with N'Zoth's recent rise to power in the final patch for Battle for Azeroth. He rallies the champions of both factions and explains the only way to resist the Old God's whispers was to create an object of pure corruption and purify it. Taking the players to the lair of his aunt and uncle Onyxia and Nefarian, they discover minions of the Old Gods trying to raise them and Wrathion destroys the remains while the player deals with the inquisitor leading the enemy forces. Taking scales from his dead family, Wrathion turns them into a cloak that will protect the player from N'Zoth's corruption.
Before heading off to deal with N'Zoth for good, Wrathion finally meets with Ebyssian in person and says he protected him because he was the only family he had left. Finally entering the Sleeping City, the first raid encounter is none other than Wrathion himself, who finally fell to Old God corruption, at least until defeated and revealed to be an illusion. The real Wrathion walks in and leads the players in setting up beacons to target the Forge upon N'Zoth. Later in the raid, after saving Azshara, she gives Wrathion the Black Blade Xal'atath to use against N'Zoth, which he does during the first boss fight against the Old God by using it to tear a hole into its carapace and letting the raid into the heart. During the final battle, Wrathion serves as a beacon that can restore a player's sanity as it drains throughout, and the fight ends with N'Zoth getting hit directly with the Forge and disintegrating. Victory and even a hope of fighting against the Old God would never have been possible without the plans of Wrathion. Finally, during the victory celebration, Wrathion stated he would no longer scheme in the shadows but take up his role as the leader of the new Black Dragonflight and forever after help defend Azeroth and her people.
Is he magnificent?
There's really no denying Wrathion is intelligent, especially for being so young, but what he didn't yet have was wisdom. Much in the same way, he had a confident demeanor that later got overran with smugness. If we were going by his characterization before the Battle for Azeroth expansion alone, I never would have proposed him, as he had a pretty severe meltdown at the end of Mists of Pandaria. Yet, Wrathion has one of the biggest personality turn arounds in the franchise's history by the time we last meet him. The last expansion sees him become a far more wise, humble, and gentle character that is trying to redeem himself for his past mistakes. He becomes far more traditionally charming and wise as part of his character development. Compare the Wrathion in the top video to the one in the bottom.
Is he a bastard?
Wrathion is a Well-Intentioned Extremist that has done horrible things in the process of, in his mind, saving Azeroth. He's certainly enough of a bastard, even if he majorly Took a Level in Kindness in the recent expansion.
Any other mitigating factors?
The meltdown and his plans with Garrosh blowing up in his face are certainly the big issue with him, yet I've brought up that he goes a long way to redeem himself. Kind of like Azula recovering except he pulls a full Heel–Face Turn.
The other issue in which sparked me to do this effort post in the first place was saying that Wrathion had Fantastic Racism towards orc and tauren based on his quests in Mist of Pandaria, but I'm not even really sure where that is coming from after looking over the quest text. It was brought up he demonizes an orc and holds on a pedestal a dwarf that committed crimes against the tauren, but the actual quest text doesn't go near that far. Here's the quest
given to the Alliance to kill the orc leader and here's the quest
given to Horde to kill the dwarf leader. Besides the quest text being quite similar in both, the alliance version has him hyping up the players for killing an orcish leader, while the horde version has him...do the exact same thing. He doesn't even talk up the dwarf leader, and tells the players he's a nuisance and was an important alliance leader. In both cases, Wrathion is manipulating players on both sides to ingratiate himself to them.
To double down here, he has many orcs in service as Blacktalon agents and one of his most trusted bodyguards is a female orc. As for tauren, he respected the tauren paladin Sunwalker Dezco enough to consider him as important a councilor as the human prince. So yeah, I don't know where the original arguments came from.
Final Verdict?
I'll leave this for you guys to decide. Does Wrathion ultimately do enough in the end to redeem himself from his mistakes and failings and rise high enough to be considered magnificent?
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Gonna say yes on him, reminds me of Silat in some regards with the character growth.

Don't sweat it mate, I think we're all moved on.