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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#60101: Oct 13th 2021 at 8:58:36 AM

Actually I'll update pending later but I will take the time to give a yes to all four now!

HighfalutinQuelea Since: Sep, 2016
#60103: Oct 13th 2021 at 9:24:31 AM

Think I've enough votes, time to post these:

  • Mark Faba, fittingly nicknamed "the Undying", is a brutal yet charming assassin known for his violent and elaborate assassinations. A former MI5 agent, Faba faked his death after killing a diplomat during a botched surveillance mission and reappeared years later as a freelance assassin, starting with the spectacular assassination of an MI6 agent. Despite the ICA confirming him dead over 25 times, Faba always survived their attempts on his life, reappearing no worse for wear and even taunting them with clues to his whereabouts. While preparing for a contract in Miami, Faba even survives 47's initial attempt on his life, marking the only failure in the master assassin's otherwise impeccable record.
  • Taheiji Koyama is a veteran of the siege of Sarajevo and the controller of the SIGMA paramilitary unit under CICADA. Haunted by the atrocities his unit committed, Koyama dedicated the rest of his life to charity and anti-war activism. After being diagnosed with Elyen's Syndrome, he hired the ICA to eliminate his five colleagues and finally himself as repentance for their war crimes, only seeking treatment at the GAMA facility to ensure he lived long enough to die by 47's hand. When 47 finally confronts him, Koyama thanks him for his timeliness before allowing the assassin to kill him. Having made arrangements for the ICA to retrieve and publicise the Sigma files and expose CICADA, Koyama dies in peace, having fully atoned for his crimes.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#60104: Oct 13th 2021 at 9:53:24 AM

I really think the villain from Old should be cut. His actions are way too horrible and disgusting, and he basically forces six year olds to have sex...

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#60105: Oct 13th 2021 at 9:57:37 AM

No he doesn't. We already went over this: he oversees the experiment but it's entirely hands off.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#60106: Oct 13th 2021 at 9:58:33 AM

[tup]Faba, Koyoma, Ai and Headmaster.

Don't remember what my vote is on that candidate, but the vote is settled and if we don't have any new info or ways of looking at old info, he stays.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#60107: Oct 13th 2021 at 10:10:21 AM

Yeah, I believe the general consensus was that as brutal as some of the things in that movie are, he’s hands off enough that he can’t quite be blamed for the specifics, and that combined with his good intentions toned him down enough to slip in

Oh, and yeah to the last four - great work all!

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 13th 2021 at 1:15:53 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#60108: Oct 13th 2021 at 10:47:59 AM

What is "basically" user? Does he order rapes, force children to have sex or anything of the like?

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#60109: Oct 13th 2021 at 10:48:45 AM

We'd also like a bit more information than just "he's disgusting and I think he should be cut...", if you're gonna make a cut proposal then put thoughts together and go through the process of addressing the entry, why you feel they don't count in detail, and then put it to a vote. Don't just barge in, ignore people's proposals, and say "I think this villain who not everyone may recognize should be cut because I think he's gross", several people will have zero context or idea about who you're talking about when you don't even link the film page, let alone post the entry itself.

If someone came in with "I think (X) should count for this trope, he's funny and cool and I think he's charming...", that wouldn't be a proper proposal. Likewise, if you're coming in here to suggest cutting an approved character, we expect a bit more professionalism than a single sentence with zero information on the character or work.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#60110: Oct 13th 2021 at 10:56:53 AM

Also just going to preemptively say no one's being mean to you here user, we're asking for clarification and attention to EPs.

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#60111: Oct 13th 2021 at 12:12:18 PM

@43: no, nothing even slightly implies that he's "forcing" them to do that. That bit's pure Fridge Horror taken out of context.

[down] Oh. Noted.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Oct 13th 2021 at 1:14:18 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#60112: Oct 13th 2021 at 12:13:20 PM

Dood I think that was a hypothetical about general candidates on 43's part not an "did he actually do this" question.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#60113: Oct 13th 2021 at 12:20:34 PM

I haven't seen Old personally, I am just going off of what a friend who's seen it said about him.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#60114: Oct 13th 2021 at 12:23:09 PM

User: Might I suggest holding off on posting a cut proposal until you see the film?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#60115: Oct 13th 2021 at 12:26:22 PM

We don't base our verdicts off some outside, off site source.

Edited by AustinDR on Oct 13th 2021 at 12:26:38 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#60116: Oct 13th 2021 at 1:09:00 PM

"My friend said he..." was a massive issue unfairly getting an attempted dog pile on the manager. Let's not restart this, it was a shit show discussing him the first time with lots of sketchiness to the counterpoints to him. If he's going to be debated again there needs to be a lot of scrutiny put into a proposal for his removal so we don't just reopen a very unpleasant debate.

That was clearly stated as a hypothetical on my part, thanks for noting j.

Like... last sentence from his writeup: "His studies have likely killed hundreds, but he takes no pride in that fact, believing that his victims should be honored as martyrs to scientific breakthroughs that could save untold millions."

What is "too bad" about him? I don't understand why everyone takes his crimes in a vacuum like he's some kind of Complete Monster... it seems unfair to overlook a Well-Intentioned Extremist's grand, good goal as long as they're not doing anything disgusting as we always assess.

Should we cut Nagare from K because he employs the Colorless King who tries to rape a kid? He certainly never ordered that and probably never learned it happened... he's employing a psychopath because he needs trouble stirred up to distract from his aim to empower all of humanity. He's as much of an Anti-Villain as one can possibly be, it doesn't make sense to attribute the atrocities of his minion he didn't order for someone who's just about as perfect a character as you can be for this trope.

Edited by 43110 on Oct 13th 2021 at 4:20:19 AM

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#60117: Oct 13th 2021 at 1:43:34 PM

So I read up on the villain on Old, and with full civility? I agree he should be cut. He IS hands off, but through reading I discovered some stuff that makes me extremely weary.

Reducing lifespans to 24 hours with rapid aging on hundreds of people to test out a new life saving drug? Pretty bad, but nothing that goes too far.

What is too far, at least in my opinion? Some of the testing that happens.

He, from my reading up, instigates sex between 2 children which results in one getting pregnant and dying in child birth. There is also an infant in the experiment who has every bone in her body broken and then dies a horrific death from all the bones in her body healing in the wrong places.

Keep in mind I haven't seen the film so I might be wrong on this.

[tup] to Mark, Taheiji, Emma and the Headmaster.

Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Oct 13th 2021 at 2:46:52 AM

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#60118: Oct 13th 2021 at 1:47:50 PM

[up] HT already explained that he's not actually involved in that

He'll you already abstained in the original vote.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#60119: Oct 13th 2021 at 1:49:00 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#60120: Oct 13th 2021 at 1:50:26 PM

Could we please not jump to cutting him immediately on the grounds of not actually seeing the film?

But yes for Ai.

Edited by AustinDR on Oct 13th 2021 at 1:50:56 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#60121: Oct 13th 2021 at 1:51:19 PM

Calling for this to be tabled until someone views and finds an issue. I can already feel this getting ugly.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#60122: Oct 13th 2021 at 1:52:46 PM

Interests: I don't mean to be rude, but you seem to have missed the part where I said:

…Might I suggest holding off on posting a cut proposal until you see the film?

I'm sorry, I just feel like my points have gone overlooked.

Lore: You may want to dial back the semi-confrontational tone. I mean, you're not wrong that Interests' post was misguided, but still…

Oh, and yes to the Headmaster, Hitman Duo and Ai before I forget.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 13th 2021 at 5:03:30 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#60123: Oct 13th 2021 at 1:57:38 PM

This last page has consisted of a back and forth of people calling for his removal whilst admitting to not having seen the film, followed responding it's not a good idea to assume all this without knowing how it plays out firsthand... I think this can be the last post on the topic regardless of stance.

Remnant43 The Salesman’s Stolen Mask from In Your Walls Since: Sep, 2020 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The Salesman’s Stolen Mask
#60124: Oct 13th 2021 at 1:58:11 PM

[tup] to Taheiji and Faba, since I just remembered I have an account here.

Edited by Remnant43 on Oct 13th 2021 at 1:59:12 AM

Skyward bound and adrift in time
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love

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