During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I think Ravok was prior to RL taking priority for him so I guess whoever wants it can do it now.
Edit: Actually, only reason Book!Thrawn got an EP was because Ravok had fun doing it. Can someone just rewrite Canon!Thrawn?
Edited by 43110 on Dec 16th 2018 at 5:43:59 AM
Goku Black
I can do it. How about this.
- Star Wars Rebels: Grand Admiral Thrawn manages to be just as brilliant in Canon as he was in legends. Thrawn is a genuis strategist, who manages to always stay a step ahead of the competition and takes any escapes of them as minor setbacks having planned for victory in the long run. Thrawn is able to figure out that Kallus is The Mole for the rebels and ends up using him to feed the Rebels false information. In "Zero Hour", his plans come together with the destruction of Chopper Base and the elimination of Phoenix Squadron, and only some incompetence by his allies and ultimately the intervention of an Eldritch Abomination deus ex machina prevent his total victory. In the Season 4 mid-season finale, he sets up a blockade to stop the Rebel Forces from invading, and despite his best efforts, they manage to get through, with heavy losses...only to run straight into the second blockade he had at the ready, hiding in the planet's atmosphere on the off chance they managed to get through the first one. The rebel fighter squadron is annihilated. Hera, Chopper, and Mart Mattin are the only survivors.
Edited by miraculous on Dec 16th 2018 at 2:58:39 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Foreign Troper
Thank you Lightysnake for providing the write up on Dijkstra, very much appreciated.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Well. Second Coppelion candidate for MB. This is curious, being initially a all around asshole helped for Character Development.
Who is Ougai Masamune?
The Japanese Minister of Inner Affairs. Ougai is one of the people supervisating the copellion project. However, Ougai is way more ambitious. Ougai is a nationalist intending to raise Japan to glory, and to do it, he manipulates the Japanese First Minister during a important conference of medioambietal issues.
Ougai wants to reuse nuclear energy, something that the first minister opposes vehemently until Ougai convinces him by appealing all the other E9 members. Ougai sidesteps the Copellion, yet he wants to show them to the international community so they would buy Copellion, re-starting a nuclear age where the Copellion would be valued for their ability of resisting deadly radiation. When the Ultimate Copellion appears, Ougai sends the three scientist (and they, the lost retrieval unit) to threaten the remaining Tokyo survivors. Unlike the Scientists however, Ougai isn’t enjoying it.
Eventually, Ougai succeeds and, despite his fear towards him, results that he and the Dr. Copellion wants the same as him. Ougai suspect something and he’s right, the Dr. Copellius want a nuclear war while Ougai just want to sell Artificial Human. They both manipulate nations into doing a intervention on Kazakhstan, causing a lot of international tension.
In the last arc. The Good Captain escaptes with a submarine to save the copellion and the survivors while also accidentaly bringing the first minister with them. Ougai tries to stop them but fails. After trying to capture them, Ougai manages to realize Copellius’ apocalyptic plan and he aids the Copellion for the sake of his survival while he realize that he was just…wrong and that he had unknowingly put not only Japan, but the entire world, in a path to self destruction.
Ougai spends the epilogue atoning for his actions, creating a division to clean up Tokyo and putting the Good Captain Mishima as a minister while also abandoning his Corrupt Politician backers, intending to leave the First Minister (who also had his own redemption arc) to build Japan. In the last scene, he helps The Heroine Ibara, who was turned into a regular human by giving her a suit, so she could visit her friends working in the still radioactive ruins of Tokyo.
Bastard and Smart?
Manipulating multiple politicians into intervention into a war to show their power so eventually, Japan could be in power? Heck yes.
Thing is, Ougai have standards. He isn’t a sadic and he legit wants to help Japan to become a superpower. He ultimately spends the last chapter trying to atone for his actions.
He wanted to sell the Copelion, but his development lead him to accept them as fully human beings that deserve rights. He's a asshole, but he developed into something more likeable.
Charisma?
Ougai is a old man, he is...cool, his manipulations are pretty fun to see, manipulating the jingoistic idiots of the E9. He also ends up as a good friend to Mishima, being The Atoner of his own actions.
Verdict?
I say…Yeah. I can see him staying.
Watch me destroying my country
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yea to the above. Also, gonna cut this example from Freezing:
- Magnificent Bastard: Checks out on all six bullet points. Gengo Aoi's a bastard alright.
And... What does his Scrappy writeup has to say:
- The Scrappy: "Many fans absolutely loathe Gengo Aoi for his constantly smug manipulation of the main characters, his family, the pandora as a whole, and anyone and everyone in his sphere of influence, and were cheering for Chevalier to finally kill him off... until it becomes evident that Chevalier's actually far, far worse! Not only do they do everything in Gengo's book, they add all new flavors of evil to the recipe, and pat themselves on the back for it."
Yea... Feel he can go unless one person can make a case on him.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Dec 18th 2018 at 12:24:19 AM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Ougai
Yeah for Ougai, cut Gengo.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Final Coppelion candidate.
Who is the Dr. Copellius?
The creator of the Copellions themselves, the Dr. Copellion was initially named Matasaburo Itami, a excentric scientist with no care for rules. Wanting to experiment in human embryos, the Dr. Copellion used a test tube alongside a willing woman giving her eggs/oocytes (dunno how call female sexual gametes in english). However, said woman decided against and demanded the Doctor for the custody of the embryo, winning.
Matasaburo Itami was doing nothing, with his reputation damaged for it until years later, he received the visit of his biological daughter, who ran away from home from her abusive mother. initially rejected her, but eventually come to genuinely love her.
One day, he rejected her invitiation to a ballet dance of Coppelia (the dance that names the series) due to being focused in his investigation, the next day, she was hit for a truck and lose one of her legs. The Doctor promised to give her leg back, willing to use clonation to create a artifical leg. However, as he was doing to do the operation, his daughter suddenly killed herself.
Matasaburo was devastated and broken. However, the nuclear outbreak of 2016 gave him a chance to try his dream once again. Genetical manipulation. He created the Copellion, starting with whom later would be the Love Interest of the heroine Ibara, Haruto Kurosawa, who had both the power of complete regeneration and the intelligence of the Dr. Copellius due to be his own clone. Haruto was created to be a assistent.
However, Matasaburo also created clones of his own daughter in a attempt to bring her back to live, all of them died to a flaw common to all copelion before the main story except one.
Dr. Coppelius' work was halted when he was expelled from his own laboratories in the Expo Park for Three Professors, who continued his work with their own ways that turned out to be unethical, through human experimentations.
The doctor lived in exile for years, observing things while disguised as a normal cleaner at the 3rd division research center located in Nagoya before escaping and arriving at Roppongi Hills in Tokyo after having stole the Aether, a sustance that allow regular humans to be inmune to radiation for a while (that were created for his clone Haruto).
In Tokyo, the Professor reunited with his allies, Ichikawa Meisa (who also had a obsessive crush on him) and Mana Tsurubaya, two Second Year Copellion who had a flaw that made them emmit toxic neutral radiation, killing everyone in their way except other coppelion after having contacted with them via a stuffed rabbit for years and having tried to capture the ultimate copellion Aoi Fukasaku, succeding for a while.
Also, when Haruto and the Ozu sisters try to capture him. The Doctor test his clone by putting a puzzle that would kill the Ozu sister and harm Haruto (he can't die do to his regeneration). He was surprised that Haruto did it.
Aoi escaped yet Copellius didn't care, he already had the formule of her DNA and exhibited it to the leaders of the E9, trying to convince them to fire a nuke so they can get it and could create their own copellion.
Dr. Copellius wanted to create a Copellion only world. He also visited the undergroud refuge of the Tokyo survivors, threatening a old man before getting caught. He wrote a formula in his jail, which turned out to be a formule that would return the Copellium into humans, sparing them for their sudden death while also escaping from his death when the refuge got inundated.
In the last arc. The Dr. Copellius free the Lost Retrieval Unit from their explosive chips, using them to carry his plan. However, while the Dr. Copellius start to regain his faith on humans, Meiko gets jealous of the attention that the Doctor is putting into Setsuna, the clone of his own daughter who had inherited her memories and re-enacts it.
The Dr. Copellius start to regret his acts and orders his allies to stop, but Setsuna herself tries to carry it by allowing the Nagoya Nuclear plant to have another meltdown. The Dr. Copellius tries to talk to her, eventually stopping her alongside Ibara. As he was was hurt and started to fall due to radiation poisoning, he gave Haruto his last aether+ (a better version of aether that he improved) to give it to Ibara after he turned her into a human.
The Doctor Copellius dies in the plant. Reflecting on his guilt and with a silly smile, as the snarky excentric old man that he was.
Smart?
Mad Scientist that practically did all the setting and manipulated most of the villains? Yeah.
Bastard?
He tried to create a world for his own creations, he manipulates girls and is no afraid of using Meiko' crush on him.
However, the Dr. is clear that he don't see Meiko sexually, seeing her as a daughter. He legit see the Coppelion as his sons, especially Setsuna and Haruto, being proud of the latter, enought to call him his Primogenic. He also have a strong Even Evil Has Standards at the sadistic Three Profesors, of whom he call "disgraces to science".
He once said that he hated woman, but given that it was said when he was thinking on the woman who ruined his experiment with a embryo by backing off at the last minute (it was a mutual agree until she suddenly refused) and then abused said daughter and just right after Meiko almost doomed the world out of petty teenage jealously, I take it more as him being a annoyed old man rather than him being a mysogine, especially given that he does show the same respect to females as to males...which is few for both genders, to be honest.
Charismatic?
Copellius is a excentric old man who always does job and treat everything as a joke. He constantly show a strong carefree personality. And he does have clear loved ones and dies trying to save The Heroine, whom he had come to respect.
Verdict
Honestly? Easy . Fun thing, before the last arc, where he showed many of his redeeming traits. I was wondering if he could be my first MB/CM crossover. He was that charismatic.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Dec 17th 2018 at 8:58:32 AM
Watch me destroying my country
yes there
Just a heads up to everyone here and in the Complete Monster thread. Someone leaked KH 3 so I would get a mod to lock the page until it's discussion time for Xehanort. Especially if he has a Ass Pull of a Freudian Excuse.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Doctor Copellion
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yea there.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
to Dr. Copellion
to Dr. Copellion
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Two upvotes? I like the guy enough to believe that he legit deserve being voting twice
Watch me destroying my country
Ougai and Copellion.
Ougai and Copellion.
With the KH 3 leak, I'm half thinking about leaving the site altogether until 29th January.
I must have missed Canon!Thrawn's EP. Glad he got approved. I mean, he only lost because of a Space Moose and Space Whales. How could he not count?
Goku Black
Copelion
To be a Master
So who is doing Zhaeer? I'm surprised it took this long for someone to bring him up. Especially since I have some retrospect in some of his actions that others thought was a bit Too Dumb to Live (namely using the mercury on Korra to force into the Avatar State was not stupid on his part since he survived long enough to see Korra almost succumb to the mercury poisoning).
I think Lighty is planning on looking to him but wait until he gets to it.
Alright, you've been waiting for him, here he is!
Who is Zaheer?
A non-bender at first, who was a devout fan of Airbender culture, Zaheer was a leader in the Red Lotus group...anarchists who believed in order through the sowing of chaps at first. Forming a plan to kidnap the young Avatar Korra, the Red Lotus was betrayed by the power hungry Unalaq and sent to prison...Zaheer languished there for years until a spiritual event awoke him as an Airbender....escaping prison, Zaheer rescued the other members of his group, Ghazan, Ming-hua and finally his lover P'li...shaving his head and beard, Zaheer proceeded to infiltrate the new Airbender school to learn of their ways and get a lead on Korra, Zaheer also used a trusted member of the area, Aiwei, as a proxy and spy to find a way to kidnap Korra, eliminating him in the spirit world when he proved troublesome.
Zaheer proceeds to enact a series of fiendishly clever gambits, luring Korra into a talk in the spirit world so that his allies can seize her while she's helpless, albeit the Earth Queen's soldiers ruin that. He proceeds to keep trying to kidnap Korra, getting close constantly, before even infiltrating the Earth Kingdom's capital where he eventually encounters the Earth Queen, Hou-Ting...expressing nothing but contempt for her, he murders her by sucking the air out of her lungs and announcing the new 'freedom' of the earth Kingdom. Defeating Korra, Zaheer poisons her to make her enter the Avatar State and die there...which will eliminate the avatar for all time....however, at the end, Zaheer ends up bested by Korra and is sent back to prison with his allies and lover dead...he makes one more appearance to help Korra recover when he realizes his actions have paved the way for Kuvira, assisting her in fixing things.
Is he charming? Charismatic? magnificent?'
Check, check and check. Zaheer is calm, collected, unbelievably charismatic and personable. He's respectful, courteous, constantly shows deference to those around him, even being kind to young Airbenders whose culture he genuinely has a real fascination with. He's a man of pure conviction, loves his comrades and is usually one step ahead of everyone else in the season. Even when his actions fail and allow for Kuvira's rise? Zaheer accepts it and helps Korra get over what he did to her.
He has a minor breakdown at the end, yelling at the heroes about balance, only for a sock to be shoved in his mouth, but at the end? Zaheer is back to his calm, courteous and relaxed demeanor, even helping Korra deal with the mess. I say magnificent.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
He's a ruthless anarchist who wants to tear down the established order, tries to murder Korra and tyrant or not, the way he murders the Earth Queen is damn brutal. He also throws Aiwei into the fog of lost souls which is a fate worse than death. However...Zaheer has a LOT of good qualities. His goals are genuinely well intentioned, he wants to save the world itself in his own way, he's respectful to others and he loves his comrades....he cares for Ghazan and Ming-hua as friends, and deeply, deeply lvoes P'li. He's horrified when she dies, though her death frees him of earthly attachments to master flight...it's pretty clear his care for them is very, very genuine all throughout.
Conclusion?'
I'd give Zaheer a solid yes.
Zaheer.
Avatar seems to be one of our rare franchises with more MB's than CM's.
Oh I just rembered. Whoose handling Canon Thrawn from Star Wars (more specifically Star Wars Rebels )
I admitt I'm more famlaor with Canon star wars than legends but I'd say in Canon. He counts just easily.
Edited by miraculous on Dec 16th 2018 at 2:31:09 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."