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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#59951: Oct 10th 2021 at 12:46:10 PM

[tup]Giogio

@43: Cowl goes in between Macrone and Mab. While Shadow goes to the end of the page.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#59952: Oct 10th 2021 at 1:31:01 PM

Cool. Also ~Morgenthaler can I have Kreasy please? He's been pending for some time too.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#59953: Oct 10th 2021 at 1:46:47 PM

[tup] to the Demon and Giogo.

Hey guys, so just finished checking out Levius and got a candidate to discuss. First, let’s talk about Levius

What’s The Work?

Levius is a steampunk martial arts Manga that was adapted to an anime series that aired on Netflix. The premise takes place in the 19th century five years after a war, where a new sport “Metalboxing” was developed in the city Imperial City. The main character is Levius Cromwell, who becomes a metal boxer where his uncle Zacks Cromwell, teaches him how to box. As he rises up in the ranks of metal boxing, Levius faces many opponent with this one being the most cunning, Malcolm Eden.

Who Is He What? Has He Done?

Malcolm Eden is a boxer who underwent heavy modifications to be able to keep fighting, even as he goes past his prime. Aside from the modifications that Malcom underwent are just enough not to surpass the regulations of Metal Boxing, but Malcom is willing to perform underhanded tactic against his opponent that the regulators cant notice.

It is through these underhanded tactics and his body modifications that Malcolm was able to win every single match. However on the matches Malcom would win, his opponents would get killed with five people already dead after facing Malcom, much to his indifference.

He would eventually face Levius Cormwell in the ring where Malcolm would give Levius his most challenging fight prior to Levius facing AJ Langdon. After a long and enduring battle Levius is able to beat Malcolm where in the manga Malcolm asks Levius to give him a warrior’s death, so that he won’t have to live his life in shame of loosing.

While Malcolm does die in the manga after Levius kills him on Malcolm’s wishes, the anime adaptation has Malcom be spared after he looses where Malcolm decides to retire from profession boxing having already reached his peak and fund a charity to help injured boxers and families of dead soldiers.

When Malcolm learns that about Levius’s match with AJ Langdon, Malcolm would help Levius train where he would teach Levius all of his tactics and strategies that allowed Malcom to win every single of his matches. Malcolm’s training would proved to truly help Levius in his fight against AJ where Levius uses everything Malcolm taught him to beat AJ and free her from Rudolph Clown’s control while Malcolm watches in the sidelines happy on what Levius has accomplished.

Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?

As an experienced boxer, Malcolm has shown himself to be extremely cunning and charismatic knowing that he’s older than most of the other fighters and uses that knowledge to modify his own body to match his opponents, while using brilliant strategies and tactics to beat his opponents and convincing the regulators that these underhanded modifications and tactics are still legal.

Even when he looses to Levius Malcolm is never a Sore Loser merely asking Levius to give him a warrior’s death in the manga so that he can die doing what he has loved, while in the anime he decides to retire from Metal boxing and train Levius for his match against AJ allowing him to beat AJ and free her from Clown, while Malcom looks at Levius proudly.

What’s The Competition Like?

Malcolm is arguably the most cunning, charismatic, and underhanded character in the manga and anime adaptation with the only one matching Malcom in terms of this is Rudolph Clown. However Clown has performed many vile acts such as kidnapping and experimenting on children and brainwashing AJ into fighting that I not sure on him. That said Malcolm does more than enough to clear the competition.

Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?

Well Malcolm has killed several opponents who have faced him in a match, having a body count of five, doesn’t really show any remorse for killing those people, and was willing to kill Levius to get his next win. In the context, I think he’s enough of a bastard to be considered.

That said, Malcolm is never sadistic or cruel about his killings, nor does he ever commit any vile or deplorable crimes, has shown to have a daughter whom he genuinely loves and she is the reason why he retires after his looses his match in Levius in the anime and would later help train Levius to defeat AJ and Clown. Yeah he isn’t too much of a bastard.

Final Verdict

I’ll leave it up to you guys to decide.

[down][down] thanks man

Edited by G-Editor on Oct 9th 2021 at 11:02:10 PM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#59954: Oct 10th 2021 at 1:50:37 PM

[tup] to Kharshai, Demon Cloche, Giogio and Malcom Eden.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#59955: Oct 10th 2021 at 1:51:52 PM

Yes to Malcolm (second "l" there bud, at least from the sources I'm seeing).

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#59957: Oct 10th 2021 at 2:17:27 PM

[tup]malcolm

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Connor2107 Since: Jun, 2017
#59958: Oct 10th 2021 at 2:24:36 PM

Hey guys. I just read TAS Venom's effort post and I wanna clarify some things.

A. Venom doesn't leave Mordo and Dormammu out of disgust for their plot to suck the life force out of civilians. He leaves because he already fulfilled his bargain to Dormammu. see 1:50 for more details. His betrayal of Dormammu seems more out of disinterest than having standards.

B. Eddie doesn't really trick Spider-Man and Iron Man into getting the symbiote. What really happens is that the latter two and Curt Connors try to convince him not to wear it again, Eddie pretends to concede, then immediately pushes Spider-Man out the way to bond with the symbiote. see here for more details.

Edited by Connor2107 on Oct 10th 2021 at 3:01:50 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#59959: Oct 10th 2021 at 3:02:17 PM

[up] Alright, thanks for the info.

You know, I can't help but wonder if there are any versions of Spidey himself who qualify for this. He's already got the brains and a witty personality. Just make him a bit less conventionally heroic...

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Oct 10th 2021 at 3:05:30 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#59960: Oct 10th 2021 at 3:05:42 PM

[tup] Kharshai.

[tup] Demon.

[tup] Giogio.

[tup] Malcom Eden.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#59961: Oct 10th 2021 at 3:11:03 PM

[up][up]Try Spider-Man Noir if you want to look for an example.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#59962: Oct 10th 2021 at 4:18:10 PM

[tup] Malcolm Eden and a late one to Kharshai.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#59963: Oct 10th 2021 at 5:09:11 PM

There is an factual error under Brutaka's entry from MagnificentBastard.Other Media. It says "Brutaka uses his connection to energised Protodermis" when in fact he was connected to Antidermis at the time. (I was a fan/follower of the series, and I double checked the series wiki about this.)

Should I ask the locked pages thread to make the change?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#59964: Oct 10th 2021 at 5:13:30 PM

It’s just a word that needs to be changed? Go ahead for the locked request, I’ll back you if there’s question about permission or anything. Please just make sure to fix the applicable YMMV page(s).

ImSpidey2 UAC Marine Reject from somewhere you most likely cannot pronounce (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Barbecuing
UAC Marine Reject
#59965: Oct 10th 2021 at 5:16:16 PM

@Connor 2107: Thanks for the info, I can update the write-up accordingly if you'd like

That being said, I have no source.
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
ImSpidey2 UAC Marine Reject from somewhere you most likely cannot pronounce (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Barbecuing
UAC Marine Reject
#59967: Oct 10th 2021 at 8:40:05 PM

Updated my write-up, and cut out some cruft

Spider-Man: The Animated Series: Venom, aka Eddie Brock, begins as an Evil Counterpart of Spider-Man seeking vengeance against him. He consistently defeats Spider-Man in combat and nearly reveals his identity, whilst maintaining an influence over his life to torment him, even invading his loved ones' privacy. Becoming Baron Mordo's servant, he quickly betrays him and Dormammu once his debt is paid to continue his pursuit of Spider-Man. When the symbiote acts against his will, Eddie separates from it, only considering rebonding due to the threat Carnage poses. Pretending to concede when warned about the fatal consequences of rebonding, Eddie returns as Venom despite the risks and forges an Enemy Mine with Spider-Man and Iron Man to defeat Carnage. While an enemy to Spider-Man, Venom shared his desire to protect the innocent, ultimately falling into a dimensional rift with Carnage to save his psychiatrist Ashley Kafka.

Hit me up if there's any other errors

Edited by ImSpidey2 on Oct 10th 2021 at 1:30:59 PM

That being said, I have no source.
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#59968: Oct 10th 2021 at 9:35:12 PM

[tup] Demon Cloche, Giogio and Malcolm

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#59969: Oct 10th 2021 at 10:20:18 PM

Yes to Cloche, Giogio, and Malcolm in the Middle.

Here's this write up. I'm gonna do the page format in another post so as not to get all this stuff mixed up.

RuneScape: Kharshai stood alone among his kindred for maintaining a staunch neutrality after Zamorak's betrayal forever tore apart the Mahjarrat. Seeking to prevent his tribe's extinction, he served as a peacemaker that settled conflicts between the warring factions and ensured minimal violence during the Rituals of Rejuvenation. Knowing this left him with few allies, Kharshai forged the bane weapons to use against his kin and set up a complex gambit to erase and later restore his memory to both keep himself undetected and to prevent a loss of his divine energy. After a failed assassination, Kharshai seals away his memories and takes the identity of the immortal warrior Koschei the Deathless for decades before using the World Guardian to set off a series of triggers that fully restores him. In the modern day, he swears an oath to unite and save his dying race from themselves.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#59970: Oct 10th 2021 at 10:26:34 PM

Anyways, 43110, can you create me a sandbox for the Runescape page? I've been here for going on 10 years and I've never been able to do it. Here's my ordering for the page. Since several candidates shared major common features, I figured this was the best way to split the entries up rather than having one giant list, since we can't do it by medium as it's one video game and can't do by appearances as there is too much overlap for that.

  • Gods
    • Zaros
    • Azzanadra
    • Seren
    • Xau-Tak
  • Mahjarrat
    • Wahisietal
    • Bilrach
    • Khazard
    • Kharshai
  • Everyone else (alphabetical order when I get to them)

Edited by LoreDeluxe on Oct 10th 2021 at 10:26:48 AM

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#59971: Oct 10th 2021 at 10:50:17 PM

[tup]Malcolm.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#59972: Oct 10th 2021 at 10:55:27 PM

  • Ar tonelico II: Melody of Metafalica: Demon Cloche is the owner of Cloche's 7th Level Cosmosphere and the embodiment of her self-destructive tendency and inner anarchy. Planning to collapse Cloche's mind to drive her into madness as her twisted way to relief her from her pain and fears, Demon Cloche invaded the lower levels to help cause there destruction, taking the form of Luca to break her other sides by manipulating and exploiting there weaknesses. Seemingly won after breaking Cloche's ego by revealing herself a part of Cloche, when Croix's hope end up restoring her other selves, Demon Cloche plans to torture and kill him as the final nail to destroy Cloche's psyche for good, only stopping when Croix manages to convince her to give him a chance to save Cloche. While a cruel demon, Demon Cloche is ultimately a twisted side who just wants to give her full self a sense of mercy even if it means using hellish methods.

As for her placement, just put her above Therapist Luca.

Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Oct 10th 2021 at 10:56:02 AM

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#59973: Oct 10th 2021 at 11:49:19 PM

Yes to Malcolm

I approve of the change to Brutaka's entry, total mistake on my part in the typing process I presume as even I knew that was false as soon as it was pointed out [lol]

Quickie question: how far are we willing to take Show Within a Show-style candidates before it becomes too blatantly fictional and falsified in-story for the character to count? I ask because Hector Alcázar is this trope in spades—An Affably Evil, cunning cartel boss who gets an entire level devoted solely to showing how he stages a prison breakout of himself and his cellmate Sam, plans for several contingencies during said breakout, then threatens Sam into tracking down Henry Avery's treasure so they can split it evenly.

Here's the rub: the entire event never happened. Sam made the whole thing up as a lie to trick his brother Nate into helping him, and the real Alcázar had been dead for some time, never even seen or interacted with in the game proper. You learn this information a massive reveal much later in the game.

Idk how to approach that one, it's not even a real Show Within a Show case, Sam just fabricates a lie that you play through as a whole level where Alcázar is awesome (to such a point that a sizable chunk of fans wish the whole thing was real and Alcázar the actual Big Bad lol), then you later learn it was all a lie and the real Alcázar long dead. Can we allow a falsified version of someone from a lie designed to trick a character when the lie is shown to the viewer in all its working parts as a supposed truth before The Reveal? Or is that pushing it too far? I'm curious where we fall on that one, I'm of two minds on it.

Edited by Ravok on Oct 10th 2021 at 11:53:27 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
MiraiYuji Since: Dec, 2015
#59974: Oct 11th 2021 at 12:02:42 AM

[up]Yeah, he definitely doesn't count. Think of it like a dream sequence or a tale where one's feats are exaggerated. If Alcázar never did any of those things, why would he count under any capacity?

Edited by MiraiYuji on Oct 11th 2021 at 9:03:03 PM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#59975: Oct 11th 2021 at 12:09:04 AM

We've had characters count from All Just a Dream stories or Show Within a Show tales, so I don't really think it's as simple as "no he definitely doesn't count because a character from just a dream wouldn't either". It wouldn't be "Alcázar" himself up for discussion, it'd be that specific version of him falsified for a wild tale by Sam, which—in context of that false scenario—does do enough to count. It's just where we want to draw the line at All Just a Dream and similar scenario characters that I'm asking, if your reasoning is as simple as "why would they count under any capacity when they're just a fake/fictional character in the story" that's fine, but that's also putting you at odds with several characters who are listed.

Edited by Ravok on Oct 11th 2021 at 12:10:51 PM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

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