During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I found his death just kinda weird? IDK, it feels odd to have all this development and build up for a villain, and then kill him off to replace him with a Generic demon dragon with no personality.
Anyways, was absolutely expecting him to cut it, but sad Nay for reasons others have said...the fact the Climax bascially happens because his obsession and tunnel vision was so great he couldn't look up dosent help.
The First man
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Sure I could split with you. I love these guys and the show as well.
I hate spoilers
When ppl say "Cut Hugo Strange", are they referring to the one from The Batman? For all I know, there might be more incarnations of him.
Also, I never had hope for Wenwu. I still say giving so many ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
s is redundant, but getting easily duped by the Greater-Scope Villain wasn't even the only thing wrong with him. He punched his son into a lake, imprisoned both of his kids, and tried to burn a village down simply because they disagreed with him. That does hurt the "magnificent" part a lot. His wife would be deeply ashamed of him since Shang-Chi said she should've been a Morality Chain Beyond the Grave.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Cool. I will shoot you a PM.
Goku Black
This is a fanwork version of him being cut.
Why do you have a problem with us down voting? Where all just picthing in our opinions?
Edited by miraculous on Sep 18th 2021 at 1:36:54 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Barb / Temporary Kylo
As said before, no one is required to stop downvoting after a certain ammount.
And none of that would really be D Qing on its own, were looking for Bastards here, we have dudes who do way worse then any of that out of Love Makes You Evil. Wenwu is basically a Saint compared to say, Obito.
Edited by Snoketrope on Sep 18th 2021 at 1:43:22 AM
The First man
Agreed with Snoke, that's what makes him a bastard and given the MCU's high heinous standard I do not see that as anywhere near too much.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
I had a feeling Wenwu wouldn't count.
He brings MCU Loki to mind at times, someone who seems to count on paper but there are so many things wrong with him it's impossible.
So, who's handling discussion about the rumoured Fire Emblem game/can we reserve stuff that is rumoured? Judging from what I hear it's a remake of one or both of the Tellius games, but there's a chance it might be a sequel to Three Houses.
The MCU's heinous standard is kind of iffy. Would we count Carnage in his upcoming movie for CM despite not nuking a galaxy like say Ego or Thanos?
Edited by Klavice on Sep 18th 2021 at 1:52:14 AM
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
I hate spoilers
I see. So he still would've qualified despite what I said. Well, I recently came up with a new for a JoJo MB, so look forward to that.
Everyone look at my sandboxSo anyway, I had someone to propose from the Simpsons episode "Simpsons Spinoff Showcase" but I feel he likely doesn't count due to being a genuinely nice guy who just so happens to be a mafia don in New Orleans. Plus not gonna lie, he's a tad smug when he's getting away from Wiggum in a speedboat taunting him.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Goku Black
Well if he is an actual Mafia don it could be okay?
Affably Evil is a thing.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
@Klavice That movie isn't out yet for one thing and for another, the Sonyverse movies are not even confirmed 100% to be the same continuity as the MCU at this time yet. So for now, they're judged separately.
Showtime!
Annabelle Cane writeup attempt, this one was... weirdly hard and I don't mind changes.
The Magnus Archives: Annabelle Cane is an avatar of the The Web. Acquiring her powers in an ESP experiment gone wrong, Annabelle proceeds to observe The Magnus Institute from a distance. She takes advantage of the nature of the Eye to communicate with John, leaving her statement somewhere she knows he is investigating and knowing he won't be able to resist reading it. In her statement, she reassures John she hasn;t been directly controlling him, and shares her backstory, while admitting that she could be making it all up. In Season 5, after the Powers emerge into the world, Annabelle hides in a pocket of the world protected from the Change, leaving vague messages for John and Martin and trusting their curiosity to lead them to her. Annabelle is genuinely friendly with the pocket dimension's creator, Mikaele Salesa, and with John and Martin when they arrive, but it's made very clear that this could be another layer of manipulation, and that she only meets them face-to-face in an arena where John is powerless. After stealing Salesa's protection and Mercy-killing him at his request, Annabelle lures Martin to her with a promise of an end to the apocalypse, trusting John to work out where she's taking him and to follow. Without ever using her powers or even directly lying, Annabelle gets them into a position to undo the apocalypse, achieving the Web's goals
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
The wifi here sucks
22, could you please stop complaining about downvotes, people are allowed to voice their opinions and it's frankly really annoying having you take an accusatory tone over the threadgoers doing what they're supposed to do
Klavice, no offence but this is not the thread to be discussing the HS of the MCU.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Some this has to stop. It’s unfair to tell people they’re downvoting too much like it’s a dog pile. You are objectively trying to control discussion and devaluing people’s opinions. Do this again and you will be getting hollered, it’s not acceptable and I tire of you trying to justify it every time.
I hate spoilers
I barely even mentioned it this time. I didn't expect it to be taken this negatively.
Everyone look at my sandbox
for Simon and Wenwu. Much like Loki and Killmonger, Wenwu is a great villain but not for the things that make an MB.
Cut Strange.
The Moron
Well, when it's an opinion that you've expressed multiple times even when given a reason for why it's not necessarily accurate, we become a bit weary and annoyed of it getting mentioned again, no matter the context. You've expressed your point, we expressed ours, and bringing it up again, even barely, begins the slide towards Single-Issue Wonk that we'd all rather cut off at the pass.
It is a repeat problem. Please just stop trying to dictate what people can and can’t do when they’re literally following the process EPs are made for. I’m getting concerned given you haven’t really addressed anyone’s worries here and again you’re trying to justify it, this time under the “I wasn’t so severe while saying it” guise.
Agreed with everyone else. There is nothing wrong with downvoting.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The Moron
And actually, I kinda wanna give the other guy from "Secrets and Lies" a shot. In hindsight, he might be worth a discussion. Key word being might - we shall see.
Who is Agent John Summers? What does he do?
John Summers is a CIA Agent who is murdered at the very beginning of the episode. Of course, for simplicity's sake, let's go chronologically.
At some point in the past, Summers was contacted by Aaliyah Nadir, the wife of Hassan, who wishes to escape her husband's abuse of her. Taking advantage of this, Summers converts her to the CIA and has her serve as a spy on Hassan's corrupt dealings, eventually managing to penetrate places no other intelligence agency good. As things got rough, Summers revealed her identity to the CIA and had them fake her death, hoping to smuggle her and her children into America. However, Summers eventually came to realize something no one else knew - while he didn't know who, he figured out there was a mole.
Realizing that he was likely to die soon, Summers set a plan in motion. First, he ordered a psych evaluation of himself as well as the four people the mole was likely to be, meeting with Jason Gideon in the process. Knowing that he was being recorded, Summers left behind subtle clues as to where he intended to stash Aaliyah and the children, pointing him towards a shipping container at the docks. Of course, Gideon didn't piece it together at the time, but with that set, Summers began the official plan, stashing Aaliyah and the children at the docks before returning home.
As soon as he gets home, he's ambushed by Bruno and Hassan, being captured and tortured for the location of the woman and children. Despite the torture, Summers refuses to break, making Bruno eventually realize that they're not going to get anything from him and snapping his neck. The CIA then makes it look like a suicide - but, because Gideon had just done a psych eval on him and concluded that he wasn't suicidal, he gets called in to investigate the mole, and the chase is on.
As the case goes on, the BAU not only gets the tape of his meeting with Gideon, but they also realize that Summers ordered his own psych eval in order to get their attention. This calls their attention to the video, where they put together the clues he left behind to conclude they're all at the docks. Unfortunately, they realize this just a minute too late, as Hassan has realized where they are and gets there first. Luckily, Morgan isn't far behind them and moves to arrest him - though Hassan tries to claim diplomatic immunity, Morgan realizes Summers' plan: the crate hasn't passed through customs yet, so he has no immunity yet.
In the end, Hassan is arrested, Bruno is outed and arrested, and posthumously, Summers managed to achieve everything he set out to do.
Is he Magnificent?
Summers' plan works perfectly even though he's not alive for most of it. He figures out there's a mole and who it's likely to be, orders his own psych eval to get the BAU's attention, drops clues that fly over the heads of the other CIA agents in the process, hides Aaliyah and the children from Hassan, dies without breaking from the torture, and ultimately the pieces he set in motion leads to Hassan being arrested despite the potential for Diplomatic Immunity and Bruno being outed, so he gets everything he wanted. Though Bruno does a damn fine job covering his tracks until the last moment (and the BAU's plan to out him is entirely their own), they couldn't have done it without the ground work Summers laid out for them, and ultimately Summers manages to ensure the arrest of a dangerous man and the outing of a mole in one fell swoop. Pretty good for a guy who dies less than three minutes into the episode.
Is he a Bastard?
This is the trickier part, but ultimately, I think he slides in. Don't get me wrong, he's a hero and is ultimately hoping they'll survive, but he essentially uses Aaliyah and the children as bait for Hassan, just dropping them in the crate and leaving them when he knows he's going to die soon and thus can't help or guide them any further. Notably, they're in the crate for so long that they run out of water - Aaliyah has to leave the children behind to go find some and Hassan ends up finding them first while she's gone - so while he doesn't intend for them to come to harm or die, he's taking an incredible gamble with their lives on the line that, while it works, is ultimately rather pragmatic for a hero. Even though he intends for them to come away alive, he does so by taking a gigantic gamble with their lives on the line, and if Morgan didn't show up at the correct time, they would've been taken back to Syria or killed on the spot. All of that is without mentioning the fact that he converted Aaliyah into a spy in the first place, an incredibly risky position for her to be put in when she was already being abused by her vicious husband. I think it might be just enough to squeak in.
Final verdict?
Another maybe - he intends for everyone to survive, but his plan to do so puts them in danger to begin with and it's only his plan going perfectly that gets everyone out alive. What do you think?
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Sep 18th 2021 at 6:24:40 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Summers
Edited by superboy313 on Sep 18th 2021 at 2:24:14 AM
Yes to Summers.
Oh yeah those guys to, but I mainly said HG Well as she is the one I am most interested in (being one of my favorite charcters). Anyone want to collab on the others?
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread