During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
MCU!Fisk more or less destroys himself in Season 1, first by killing the one Russian mobster, then by killing Leland. Most of the gambitting he does after that is done to make up for his own screw-ups in the first place. He's self-sabotaging and Matt only brings him down because of that.
Added Durandal to the drafts. Will provide a write-up for Limehouse later after one or two more votes come in.
edited 15th May '18 9:46:19 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
To Dessler and Limehouse
The 3rd season Daredevil is going to come this year with Fisk returns as the Big Bad wanna wait until that season arrives?
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffSince were covering the MCU, heres the examples from Agents Of Shield.
- Magnificent Bastard:
- The Clairvoyant could give Loki a run for his money in the manipulator department. Especially considering, he doesn't actually have any powers. All in all, Bill Paxton is very fun to watch on screen.
- By "A Hen in the Wolf House", Coulson became this. Besides previous moments of brilliance, he turned a Sadistic Choice back on Raina, turns her into an asset to use against Whitehall, while also having Simmons safely extracted by Bobbi and Trip and just narrowly misses the chance to find Skye's father. Don't try to scam Coulson. This is further cemented in "Aftershocks" when Coulson, lacking the resources for direct action, tricks HYDRA's top leaders into killing each other off. In a single day he does so much damage to S.H.I.E.L.D.'s enemies that it's only dwarfed by what Captain America and Black Widow accomplished in Captain America: Winter Soldier.
- Whitehall seems to be pretty good at this to. He has agents everywhere and seems to know exactly how to tick off people at every turn. Until he gets unceremoniously shot by Coulson.
- Skye is smaller-scale than most examples, but it takes a lot of brains to beat a manipulative son of a bitch at his own game, twice. This is exactly what she did to Ward, the first time being in "Nothing Personal" and the second time being in "A Fractured House".
- Ward and Kara are now a duo of this. Ward convinced Coulson that he had a Heel Realization and wanted Kara to be put safe with S.H.I.E.L.D. - but in reality, it was all a rouse to get Kara revenge on Bobbie. And Kara played her part perfectly, by imitating May once again.
- Gideon Malick managed to snag the title of one of the show's best villains without even doing all that much himself, thanks to his taking the piss out of Ward's pretentions, having a truly grand and far-reaching ambition beyond anything else seen from HYDRA, and being played by the effortlessly intimidating Powers Boothe.
Alright. Clairvoyent is a bit too much of a dick and has one of the funniest deaths in the MCU, so cut him. Coulson and skye are not bad guys, they should not be here. Burn whitehall, the guy comitts whats one of the worst acts in the MCU and than goes out anticlimactiaclly. Ward, Kara and Gideon not sure on.
edited 15th May '18 9:49:57 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Yeah, as a watcher/lover of SHIELD? (Obligatory "People should have stuck around for more than ten episodes") None of the above count. Garret, Whitehall, and Malick are all utter pricks, Coulson and Daisy are heroes, and Ward is an emotionally disturbed psychopath who, despite being one of the MCU's best, is nowhere near the trope.
The only villain who....MIGHT count is Hive, but even he has some issues that prob keep him counting. Burn the lot of them, and I MIGHT get Hive an effortpost at SOME POINT
edited 15th May '18 10:08:36 AM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Alrighty, here's my write-ups...these are my first MB write-ups and I expect there will be some issues with them, so any and all criticisms or advice are helpful.
- ERASED: Gaku Yashiro is a psychopathic mastermind who brings excitement into his everyday life by murdering children and expertly framing Innocents for the crimes. His genius extending all the way to childhood, where he effortlessly murdered his abusive older brother and made it look like a suicide, he carries his depraved intelligence into adulthood, where he spends years perfecting the art of charming and manipulating others, especially his preferred targets. Be it noticing signs of abuse or taking advantage of their innate naivety, he always gets his target, and in a notable instance, murdered one of his male students who resembled a girl, knowing it would eliminate him from suspicion as a killer who solely targeted females. Despite Satoru's time travel abilities, Yashiro one-ups and outwits him at every turn, never even knowing of the man's powers, just being so naturally adaptable that nothing slows him down. Yashiro is a truly terrifying killer, having not only the smarts and charms to kill whoever he wants with ease, but also the fast-thinking to ensure that he's never caught, no matter what opposition arises.
- The Spectacular Spider-Man: L. Thompson Lincoln, better known as "Tombstone," is the "Big Man" of crime in New York City, running all criminal activities with a flawless, business-like approach. Introduced after sending numerous supercriminals against Spider-Man, Tombstone calmly and charismatically offers to pay Spider-Man to look the other way for some of Tombstone"s activities, and frames the hero as a criminal when he refuses the offer. Displaying numerous moments of honorable qualities, be it helping to locate a bomb at one of his parties at the cost of his own life or even saving the lives of one of his closest henchmen, Tombstone is also an excellent Villain with Good Publicity, convincing the entire city that he is an upstanding, charitable man, depsite his monstrous appearance. No situation catches Tombstone off guard for long, as he attempts to be the voice of reason when the Green Goblin starts a gang war, and even publicly assists Spider-Man in dueling numerous villains to keep up his appearance, only to then betray and attempt to murder the man once out of public eye. Unlike most every villain in the series, Tombstone gets off scot-free, easily paying his way out of prison and returning to his former seat of glory, with only surface-level damages to organization.
- 12 Rounds: Miles Jackson is a suave, perpetually cheerful terrorist who masterminds the entire plot. Miles has evaded capture and conviction for his atrocities for years, always staying one step ahead of his law enforcement pursuers, and is introduced tricking a mole in his organization into betraying the F.B.I. and robbing them, after which Miles murders the same mole for ever thinking of turning on him. Though imprisoned for several years thanks to a freak accident, Miles breaks out of prison and sets up the game "12 Rounds" to be played with his arch enemy Danny Fisher. Using the excuse that he is getting revenge for his deceased girlfriend, Miles sets up various puzzles and traps throughout the city for Danny to figure out and stop, using the man's wife as a hostage the hold time. Miles' true magnificence comes with the reveal that the entire point of 12 Rounds was solely to serve as a long, complicated set-up to a bank robbery for millions of dollars, and that every round Danny played further assisted Miles in his scheme. Always ready with a quip and possessing a swaggering charisma that draws all eyes on him, Miles is an intelligent, charming villain, one capable of ridiculous amounts of manipulation and strategy, and whose very first scene illustrates his character perfectly by having him win a losing chess game for a stranger on a whim.
edited 15th May '18 10:17:44 AM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Alright, so here comes my very first effort post on this thread. Hope I don't mess up.
Whats the work?
Supergirl, currently airing it's second third season on the CW (with a fourth already confirmed). It is set in the so called 'Arrowverse', but the show takes place on a different Earth than the other 3. It's main target audience is young women and it's tone is mostly pretty idealistic, though the show has featured some seriously dark and twisted villains nonetheless (even 3 Complete Monster's).Who is the bastard and what has he done?
His name is Rick Malverne. So far he has starred in only one episode (S2E19), making him one of many Villains of the Week. He was a classmate of Kara (Supergirl) and Alex (Kara's adopted sister, now working for a secret Goverment organization called the DEO) back in the day, having a crush on the latter and always finding the former kind of weird. When he witnessed Kara getting caught in a car explosion after saving a mother and her child, coming out of the wreck it without a scratch, he couldn't help but wonder what exactly was the deal with her. And while everybody else soon forgot about the incident, brushing it off as sheer luck or adrenaline, Rick just couldn't forget and kept thinking over it even many years after.His home life meanwhile, wasn't exactly sunshine and rainbows. His mother frequently beat him up for no apparent reason and told him that he was worthless. Luckily for him, his father Peter (whom he never got to know up until he was in his teens) found out about this, took custody of Rick and they moved away together, putting an end to the abuse. Peter, despite being a petty criminal, wished nothing more but to provide for his son and enabling him to go to college, which he succeeded in. Unfortunately, he soon went to prison for the murder of two people (his son later claims that they were Asshole Victim's, but it is never further delved into).
Over the years, Rick desperately tried to find a way to free his beloved father. When hearing about Supergirl and her heroic deeds, after publicly revealing herself to the world in National City, he immediately remembered the incident Kara was involved in years ago, and that she and her sister moved to National City. After seeing her face and learning that Alex frequently worked together with the heroine, he deduced that Kara and Supergirl are one and the same woman. Finally seeing an opportunity to free his father, he then dedicated the next year to learning everything about the Danvers sisters. Be it Kara's powers and their weaknesses, their friends and allies (most notably the DEO and J'onn/Martian Manhunter and his abilites as well), as well as Alex and her relationship with police detective Maggie Sawyer.
After finishing his research, Rick then starts his scheme by waiting outside Sawyer's appartment for Alex and kidnapping her. He then brings her to a secret hideout, a place he and his father apparently visited a few times back in the day, which he providently coated with lead. There, he places Alex in a glass cage that slowly starts filling with water. His ultimatum to Supergirl, Maggie and the DEO is quite simple: Free his father in 36 hours, or Alex will drown.
The DEO (or rather specifically, Winn Schott) are quickly able to figure out Malverne's identity, and Supergirl goes to his home to confront him. Malverine however isn't concerned in the slightest, showing Supergirl live footage of Alex being hold captive in said cage, making sure that she knows he is damn serious about it all. Supergirl subsequently brings Malverne to the DEO, where J'onn tries to read his mind to forcefully substract Alex's location from him, but Malverne has already accounted for that and shows that he has build up a strong psychic defense, rendering the attempt useless. After explaining his reason for doing all this, and emphasizing how Alex has now only 24 hours left, Supergirl then becomes angry and tries to rough him up, but Maggie stops her from doing so.
The DEO then brings his father into the room. Overjoyed, Rick thinks that his demands are being met, but after Peter tries to convince him to release Alex one too many times, he correctly deduces that this isn't his father, but J'onn, trying to trick him with his shapeshifting abilities. Even after his captors seemingly manage to track the camera signal from the Live Feed, Rick remains confident, even warning Kara that she really shouldn't go there. Ignoring his advice, Supergirl goes there nevertheless and finds nothing but a trap: The water now starts filling Alex's glass cage even faster, with the timer going down to a mere 4 hours.
Maggie becomes desperate and goes to prison on her own, fully intending to release Peter, doing what Kara can't do. Before she can do so however, Kara catches up to her and tells her that this isn't the right way. Maggie then proceeds to meet Peter, frantically appealing to the man to help her stop this madness, for Alex's sake and for the sake of his beloved son himself, because if his plan succeeds. Rick would become a murderer and be locked up for life, just like Peter. The old man is convinced and gives up the location. The glass cage meanwhile is already filled, with Alex floating lifelessly in the water, being rescued at the very last second.
With his plan in ruins, Rick is then incarcerated with his knowledge of Supergirl's identity wiped from his mind.
What's his competition like and how's he perform against them?
Aside from himself (which was written by me a year ago and is quite lacking, sorry for that), only Roulette is listed as a MB on the Supergirl YMMV page and I......wouldn't really call her that. Not because she is also a Complete Monster, but because she is just way too smug and condesceding for that. All in all, he does pretty great, honestly. 90% of the villains in Supergirl are superpowered beings and the human villains (like Cadmus) have vastly more ressources and quite different goals than him. And while quite a few of the Supergirl villains have some sort of plans, I think nobody has had so much dedication and came so close to achieving his goals as Rick. And like I said earlier, he was no Big Bad, not even an Arc Villain, all of this happened in one single episode (well, aside from the flashbacks as a child). Really, this guy accounted for everything, all countermeasures against his plan failed......the only variable he didn't think of was his criminal father gaining a conscience and giving up his freedom for Alex's life. And I wouldn't call that foolish, honestly.Is he a chessmaster? Manipulative? Capable of thinking on his feet?
If the above wasn't enough indication, oh yes, he definitely is. He learned all about the Danvers sisters, Supergirl's and J'onn's powers and ways to counter them by himself. Plus, he also precisely predicted how Kara would react and correctly deduced that despite everything, she would be too much of a girl scout to fulfill his demands, thus manipulating Maggie into doing it.How much a bastard is he? Redeeming Qualities? Is he charismatic?
Well, abducting his former childhood crush, putting her life at risk in such a horrible manner (video feed and voice connection included!), all while taking advantage of the panic and pain of her loved ones is pretty fucked up. He also wears a confident smile throughout many scenes. But despite all that, he is never outright sadistic. In fact, he even pleads to Maggie to fulfill his demands, so they can both be reunited with the people they love the most. He bears no ill will against Alex, she is just a means to an end for him. And after his father has given up the location of the hideout, Alex is rescued and he is about to face a long time in prison? No Villainous Breakdown, no spiteful behaviour, in fact he even expresses respect towards Alex for surviving and accepts his defeat.Conclusion?
All in all, Malverne is definitely the shows biggest Knight of Cerebus in my opinion. A bastard. But a magnificent one. A truly chilling example of how far Even Evil Has Loved Ones can go.edited 15th May '18 10:31:58 AM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
to Limehouse
By seasons 5 and 6 Boyd has lost his potential for qualifying.
As for the Stargate examples. It has been a while since I've seen it but wouldn't Ba'al be too evil to count? Doesn't he torture the heroes at one point?
Todd probably qualifies but an effort post would be required for me to fully agree. Sheppard is a good guy and therefore doesn't count
edited 15th May '18 12:20:39 PM by SophiaLonesoul
Sheppard isn't an MB. Not even close.
Ba'al does deserve an EP. He is worth considering. I agree with most of Morgenthaler's points, but I think they're worth exploring properly. He's the kind of character that needs an EP to done just so we can ensure we've got a firm decision on whether he counts.
I disagree with Morgenthaler about Todd. I don't believe he's an example. Yes, he is manipulative and is a schemer, but he's also a victim of circumstance (multiple times, including his own plans and subordinates). What he is, is strategic, adaptive, flexible and able to find a way (eventually) to come out of any mess he gets into. It's engaging and he certainly has his moments of stealing scenes or entire episodes but, while he may be Magnificent, he actual fails on the Bastard aspect of the trope. He's not a Magnificent Bastard.
That said, I do believe that Todd needs an EP so that a firm decision is made on him one way or another. I think it's fair to say that Ba'al and Todd are both borderline, so do need the discussion.
edited 15th May '18 1:37:49 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.From this
, should ALL the MLP examples be cut? Adagio Dazzle is the one character who may count, and if she doesn't, why not?
This is the 3rd time I've asked, If I'm asking too much, let me know and I'll request all except Adagio (who I'll assume is still being considered) be cut.
This is from the Warrior Cats YMMV page:
- Magnificent Bastard: Sol, Tigerstar, Hawkfrost. Brokenstar as well in Yellowfang's Secret.
I haven't kept up with the series so I'm not all that familiar with Hawkfrost or Sol but I doubt they count and Tigerstar and Brokenstar are far too monstrous to count

Dessler and Limehouse are an easy yea. And your Durandal writeup doesn't look that bad Ambar. Let 43110 took care of it as I don't even know how to do it myself haha
@Ravok Feel free to EP him if you don't mind. Would love to hear the two sides of the argument
@Morgenthaler @Shadao Hmmmm........come to think of it, your arguments regarding Jafar kind of persuade me a little bit. Would love to hear other opinions regarding this from other people.
EDIT: Oh! And I'll throw in a yea to the Vulture and Zemo as well
edited 15th May '18 9:41:56 AM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."