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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#57301: Sep 2nd 2021 at 5:52:15 PM

Yeah that's I was thinking. If we want to priortize a setting not having too many we should look at short runner tabletop games. If tabletop game has too many editions, you're gonna get lots of keepers, by the law of large numbers.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#57302: Sep 2nd 2021 at 5:53:26 PM

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of...

I mean, some of the superhero ones, Deadlands, 7th Sea, Call of Cthulhu, so forth...it's possible and I can dive in so we ca slash up for some pages..

The main issue is tabletop games love their big twisty plots, so it's a good ground for MB's

Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 2nd 2021 at 5:54:18 AM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#57303: Sep 2nd 2021 at 5:57:25 PM

Yes to crazy David Hyde Pierce... on a tangential note, speaking of the Cthulhu mythos and MB I've got something on my mind... will need to check with Lighty first.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#57304: Sep 2nd 2021 at 6:10:26 PM

So who knows it... is it that hard to focus on some that have a few bits of lore to research? Small characters are pretty easy to do guys, just don't leave me with a page that looks like shit please.

[up] & [up][up] So do those.

Edited by 43110 on Sep 2nd 2021 at 9:11:00 AM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#57305: Sep 2nd 2021 at 6:13:30 PM

At this point, I'm 100% certain Jace Beleran counts for Magic the Gathering. I can do him once my Runescape stuff is done or Lighty can hit him up if he's still into Magic lore.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#57306: Sep 2nd 2021 at 6:14:55 PM

I've got to get the materials and read them to hunt for MB's. I'll try before long.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#57307: Sep 2nd 2021 at 6:16:11 PM

For what its worth, Jace is a relatively recent enough character that all his real important bits can be found in the free short stories on the Magic website.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#57308: Sep 2nd 2021 at 7:01:27 PM

[tup] to Doom, Corvus and Warwick

[tdown] to Jessica

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#57309: Sep 2nd 2021 at 8:44:02 PM

Yes to Doom, Corvus and Warwick

No to Jessica

I have another animated Marvel to propose, one from the 1998 Silver Surfer cartoon:

Who is Ego the Living Planet? What is he done?

As usual, Ego is a living planet and in this cartoon, he is enslaved by the Mad Titan Thanos. Thanos wants to enslave the Silver Surfer so he can control Galactus and bring carnage to the galaxy. Thanos creates a nova that sends Silver Surfer to Ego, where Ego has the elements attack Silver Surfer. When Ego fails to defeat the Surfer, Thanos attacks the Surfer directly, attempting to enter his mind to learn the secret of Galactus. Thanos unlocks the memories that Galactus locked away, learning that the Surfer is from the planet Zenn-La. Thanos has painful memories of Zenn-La and flees, freeing Ego.

The Surfer defies Galactus and saves the Earth, Galactus releases the Surfer from his service, but to punish the Surfer, he teleports Zenn-La away, so that the Surfer can never return.

Later Ego is attacked by Fracitites, crystals in space that drain a planet's energy, Ego sends out a call to anyone who can help him, but both the Kree and the Skrulls ignore him, only the Surfer offers aid to free the planet of the Fracitites. After the Surfer succeeds, Ego remakes himself into Zenn'La (using the Surfer's memories Thanos unlocked and his own general knowledge) and attempts to trick the Surfer into staying with him, to be his protector. Ego remakes the world to suit the Surfer's whims, he makes it completely peaceful at first, with everyone fawning over him and wanting to make him the new leader. When Surfer wonders why everyone is so fawning, Ego fears he is growing bored and has the Surfer's friend Darwekk challenge him to combat for leadership. The Surfer's lover Shalla-Bal even convinces the Surfer to seemingly give up his power and become Norin Radd. Darwekk attacks Radd and says in Radd's current state he will be formidable than Galactus or Thanos. A pit shallows the pair and they end up in a river, even though Radd seemingly lost his power, he is able to summon board.

After that, he decides this is not Zenn-La, there was no way for anyone on Zenn-La to know he fought Thanos and he senses no trace no Galactus' power on the planet. Ego makes all of the recreations Surfer's friends vaporize in front of him. The fake Shalla-Bal makes a final plea for the Surfer to stay, vaporizing when the Surfer rejects her. Ego reveals himself and attempts to force the Surfer to stay. Surfer absorbs energy from Ego's core, which leaves Ego close to death, Ego guilt trips the Surfer over this and the Surfer restores Ego's power. Ego lets the Surfer and wishes him luck in finding Zenn-La.

Is he Magnificent?

He does manage to trick the Surfer into thinking he has found Zenn-La for a time, his scheme only undone by Ego's eagerness to cater to the Surfer's whims and knowledge he does not know (not knowing Darwekk would not know who Thanos is).

Is he a basatard?

Ego is a tragic villain, lonely and wanting a protector and a friend, but his manipulation of the Surfer's emotions for his own benefits can be seen as cruel, playing with his emotions and willing to torment him with visions of his friends and loved ones vaporized before his eyes, but he is not driven by malice. Ego is far less evil here than in other media and is not as vile as a nihilistic psychopath like Thanos is in this cartoon.

Final Verdict?

I think he can be a keeper.

Edited by Overlord on Sep 2nd 2021 at 9:04:07 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#57310: Sep 2nd 2021 at 8:57:55 PM

Leaning [tup] Ego.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
227someguy I hate spoilers Since: Apr, 2017
I hate spoilers
#57311: Sep 2nd 2021 at 9:16:10 PM

[up][up] I take it the cartoon doesn't have a page? [tup] for Ego, but it seems like he falls into Third Act Stupidity.

Edited by 227someguy on Sep 2nd 2021 at 12:17:14 PM

Everyone look at my sandbox
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#57312: Sep 2nd 2021 at 9:23:46 PM

Actually that's a good point, switching to abstain. Rereading the manipulations don't seem as well thought out.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Javertshark13 Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#57313: Sep 2nd 2021 at 9:40:56 PM

[tdown] to Jessica.

Edited by Javertshark13 on Sep 2nd 2021 at 12:41:30 PM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#57314: Sep 2nd 2021 at 10:12:47 PM

Could Ego have possibly known about the holes in his illusion?

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#57315: Sep 3rd 2021 at 3:16:37 AM

[up]227someguy, it has a page:

Silver Surfer: The Animated Series

[up] I think the slip up with Thanos is an honest mistake, he didn't know modern Zenn-La was unaware of Thanos and Thanos would be at the top of his mind. I think a knock against Ego is he maybe he was too desperate to have the Surfer stay and was too willing to change the illusion to cater to the Surfer's whims, I am also not sure why he stuck the Surfer in a river in Act 2.

Edited by Overlord on Sep 3rd 2021 at 3:28:31 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#57316: Sep 3rd 2021 at 5:26:58 AM

[tup] Corvus, Warwick, and DOOOOOM!!!!

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#57318: Sep 3rd 2021 at 8:47:03 AM

[tup] to Corvus and Warwick.

Abstain on Jessica and Ego.

Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Sep 3rd 2021 at 8:48:53 AM

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#57319: Sep 3rd 2021 at 10:31:34 AM

Yea to Warwick

Okay, I've probably got like another 10 or so Warhammer 40K posts, TBQH...I'm gonna try to ferret out like 4-5 others from other games for the sake of the page first. But there're three really poignant ones i really wanna do soon

BlackFaithStar [Hiatus til March] from 🇲🇾 (UTC plus 8) (Less Newbie) Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
[Hiatus til March]
#57320: Sep 3rd 2021 at 10:36:24 AM

[tup] Archy, Aramaki, James, Doom, Corvus, Warwick
Abstain on Jessica and Ego atm.

Finally finished procrastinating on the Kaizo writeup, at 125 words not counting potholes. I get the impression that the limit of sorts is 200 words, would appreciate clarification please.

Secondly, this'll be going in Magnificent Bastard Other Media I believe? Do I add it after I'm given the clear or does someone else?

Asian Animation

Let me know if I should make any adjustments, this is my first writeup tho I appreciate any feedback regardless.

Edit: Italicised work title.

Edited by BlackFaithStar on Sep 3rd 2021 at 6:42:37 PM

When you're alone I'm reaching out to let you know that you're far from strangers, like the savior
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#57321: Sep 3rd 2021 at 10:48:16 AM

Hell I got a good one:

What's the work?

Deadlands is a Weird West sort of TTRPG. Quoth the Tropes page:

"The Weird West starts out as a sort of Alternate History: long ago, around the time of the Renaissance, a group of Native Americans finally succeeded at closing the doors to the "next world", referred to almost ubiquitously in the game material as "The Hunting Grounds." Doing so sealed the mystical gates between worlds, which made all magic, good or ill, much, much harder to perform. That was actually the goal, as "ill" vastly outnumbered "good".

All that changed on July 3, 1863. By this time, monsters and dragons were nothing more than folklore, footnotes in cultural history. Then, an enterprising (and vengeful) Susquehanna shaman named Raven re-entered the Hunting Grounds and succeeded at undoing the work of those who had come before him, opening the spiritual barriers between worlds once more. This would be Raven's Reckoning against the white man.

All Hell broke loose. Things that previously belonged in nightmares became real. Mere arcanists suddenly became aware there was more to the world than they could see, and some began to barter or swindle dark spirits for power. Shamans regained powerful medicine. Demons — "manitous", in the sourcebooks — began to whisper secrets of technology yet-to-come in the ears of tinkerers, slowly driving them mad. The forces of good eventually began to lend aid to their appointed. And, rarely, the dead began to walk the Earth."

Now, the Eldritch Abomination crew who form the big bads...the Reckoners, and each has a champion. The nastiest is the monstrously evil Jasper Stone....

With a twist?

Who is Jasper Stone?

A terrifying undead monstrosity who hunts down to slaughter all the heroes and unleash hell on earth. A brutal, cruel sadist who delights in the slaughter of others, who would damn the world should it give him a challenge and some fun. So, why the hell am I proposing this guy?

Well...in an attempt to secure Hell on Earth, the Reckoners send Stone back in time. Now, who's active then? Jasper Stone, when still a human. And this Stone? Well, begins working with the elder, Harrowed Stone...so let's talk young Stone. He's a ruthless young man, criminal and bandit who hasn't yet joined the army yet, but he's also brilliant, luring the heroes into traps and providing a more intelligent touch than his ruthless future version.

And here's the kicker...the young Stone learns his destiny and doesn't like it. In fact, he hates the monster he becomes and begins to subtly work against him, setting up Stone the Elder for the hroes. Now, it turns out? There's a very, very, VERY specific condition to killing Stone: you need to shoot him with the bullets that killed him (that are embedded in his body, good fucking luck) or to shoot him with a gun shot with his own hand.

When Young Stone lures him into a trap and is almost wounded, he figures out a way around this in the module Between a Stone And a Hard Place

He shoots his own hand off while injured and gives it to the heroes, allowing the player character to take the shot on Elder Stone and finish him for good...with a gun shot with his own hand, as the younger Stone slips off to an uncertain future.

How's he operate?

Real well. He's ruthless, clever, dangerous...but damned if he's not charismatic and charming when he wants. He might be a nasty bastard, but he figures out a hell of a prophecy twist and provides a way to stop himself.

Is he a bastard? Too much?

Yes, he's a ruthless thug who happily works to take down good guys...but then realizes what a monster he'll become a works to prevent that, while even going so far as to shoot his own hand off so the heroes can finish Stone off. It's a very interesting dynamic here: the same exact character as a CM, only for their younger self to be so disgusted with their evil that they hit MB.

Conclusion?

And a yes to Jasper Stone

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#57322: Sep 3rd 2021 at 10:51:48 AM

[tup]Stone

Are you doing Darius Hellstromme (one of the big three main villains of the setting and arguably the most sympathetic ) as well by any chance ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#57323: Sep 3rd 2021 at 10:56:01 AM

Possible. I'm gonna try to get like 3-4 other TTRPG guys from various settings so we cna be fine with Warhammer, World of Darkness, etc. pages

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#57325: Sep 3rd 2021 at 11:03:29 AM

[tup]Younger Stone.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

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