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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#56076: Aug 18th 2021 at 2:48:56 PM

[tup] to The Demon.

From what I remember, they weren't taken too seriously and were a bit cartoonish at times. The movie is Lighter and Softer than the first one, after all.

Still abstaining for now due to not seeing the film for a while.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#56077: Aug 18th 2021 at 2:55:57 PM

I think I can [tup] Jacobo then. That really doesn't sound too bad for a family movie supervillain.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#56078: Aug 18th 2021 at 3:15:22 PM

Yeah, my hesitance on Jacobo is not at all for heinousness—he's the villain of a PG Scooby-Doo film that's very light and soft, he's no Nibiru Entity or Pericles—it's solely due to my lack of memory on the film and feeling like there's something maybe holding him back. So, as said before, abstain for now.

Oh, and much as on CM, I'mma call the animated Catwoman movie recently announced.

Alrighty, as miraculous and I are working together on the Dynamite Sherlock Holmes comics, I've got my very first iteration to discuss of one of my favorite classic literature villains. From the comic Moriarty Lives, I present...uh, you can guess.

Who is Moriarty? What makes him a candidate?

Professor James Moriarty is, of course, the brilliant Arch-Enemy to Sherlock Holmes himself. Dubbed the Napoleon of Crime and the greatest criminal mastermind the world has ever seen, Moriarty survives his tumble off the legendary Reichenbach Falls alongside Holmes as seen in "The Final Problem", this comic showing off what happened to him afterwards as he takes center stage as the Villain Protagonist.

Washing up on shore in a small town, Moriarty quickly escapes public eyeballs drawn by his soaked appearance by using mere deduction to bluff a threat to a man's family and steal his clothes. After charming the waitress of a local tavern, Moriarty witnesses her assaulted and fights off her attackers, noting he "does not care to see them offer her insults". But when the monstrous lord of the town, Baron von Hohenheim, uses his electricity gloves to stun Moriarty and murder the waitress, Moriarty makes two promises: to protect the woman's young son Udo, and to take down Hohenheim for crossing him.

While training Udo in the ways of deduction and fighting, Moriarty begins his plot...he picks off various members of Hohenheim's gang and pins it on fictitious thugs known as the "Wolf Pack". Using more deduction and manipulation to convince a local couple to house him and Udo, Moriarty also disguises himself as "Walther" and infiltrates Hohenheim's gang, learning of a vast amount of treasure locked away in Hohenheim's safe and that Hohenheim reigns over the town by claiming to use alchemy to drive out evil.

While on patrol as "Walther," Moriarty tricks some stray goons into attacking his compatriots and then murders them all, framing them as members of "Wolf Pack" and making the threat to Hohenheim's operations seem more real. Seducing Hohenheim's wife as well, Moriarty gets closer and closer to the treasure, using Udo getting a job as a kitchen boy in Hohenheim's castle to further approach his goal.

Ultimately dispatched to assassinate the town mayor and make it look like the work of "demons," Moriarty makes his final move: in truth convincing the mayor to ally with him, Moriarty fakes his death by demons and leaves him for townsfolk to find...only to have the mayor "return to life" and blame Hohenheim for the presence of evil in their town, whipping the civilians into a frenzy as they begin raiding Hohenheim's castle and burning it.

Saving Udo and the Baroness from Hohenheim even after they both tried to doublecross Moriarty, Moriarty uses them to help him escape with Hohenheim's treasure, Moriarty personally murdering by Hohenheim by flinging a glass of wine at him when he tries to use his electricity gloves, dousing him...and as Moriarty says, "I think you have forgotten one of electricity's most significant qualities. It is conducted by liquids."

Fleeing the town, Moriarty then sees through an attempt by Udo to throw the money away "honorably"—Udo truthfully had put the money in another location and tried to keep it all himself, to which Moriarty applauds the boy's attempt, but notes that he'll "have to try again in ten years to fool me." Moriarty then evenly divides the massive loot amongst all whoe helped him obtain—knowingly or not—and departs for London to rebuild his criminal empire, noting "I survived my tumble over Reichenbach Falls. I must assume an old friend did as well, and he and I have unfinished business."

Is Moriarty magnificent?

Absolutely, positively, yes. Moriarty's an arrogant, egotistical bastard, but he earns every last narcissistic flair he has, being a madly brilliant genius of deduction and manipulation, able to analyze fighting styles, home lives and happiness levels just from a glance, and he spectacularly dismantles Hohenheim's crooked empire with false flags and disguises. Even when Udo and others think they can get one step ahead of him, Moriarty adapts immediately and calmly and comes out completely on top.

He dislikes thugs disrespecting a woman in his presence, has several Pet the Dog moments, and he seems to genuinely view Udo as an apprentice, with this humorous exchange happening when he saves the boy:

Udo: "You came back for me. Why?"
Moriarty: "My dear Udo, isn't it obvious that I've come to regard you as my apprentice? I've become quite fond of you. There is something of a paternal bond here, I believe!...Also, I'll need your help to find (the treasure)."

Is Moriarty a bastard?

Definitely, he's a criminal mastermind who is shown to be a ruthless murderer even to people defenseless before him. At one point, he kidnaps a baby from its parents he's planning to ally with, menaces it with a knife...then slashes himself severely before handing the baby back, showing to the parents that he's both capable of doing heinous things and enduring great pain, earning their alliance.

Moriarty is, however, repulsed by Hohenheim and his thugs, and Hohenheim is so godawful that Moriarty indeed comes out looking like a Gentleman Thief in comparison [lol]

Now, it is worth noting that Moriarty's darkest moment is right at the start of the comic, where he notices he needs new, not-soaked clothes fast so he won't draw attention...he does so by analyzing a man passing in an alley, and—using "Guesswork" to deduce he has a wife and two girls—makes a very violent threat to have his entire family raped and killed, noting "Children do not appeal to such refined gentlemen as ourselves, but the brutes in my employ...well, they're a different matter." The man quickly hands his clothes over and Moriarty goes on his way.

This is uhhh a rough threat, but it's absolutely to note: this is a bluff. Moriarty outright says his threat was brought about by deduction of the man's appearance and gifts he had, and he has absolutely no "men in his employ" at the time. It's a total lie with no real menace behind it to get himself what he needs fast, and considering he later goes out of his way to try to protect women and children even when they've crossed him, I'm perfectly happy to let this slide.

Final Verdict?

Happy yes to my first Moriarty.

Edited by Ravok on Aug 18th 2021 at 3:16:57 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#56080: Aug 18th 2021 at 3:22:06 PM

[tup]Moriarty definitely and demon

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#56081: Aug 18th 2021 at 3:22:45 PM

[tup] to Demon and Moriarty. Abstain on Jacobo for now.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#56083: Aug 18th 2021 at 3:33:38 PM

Not sure on Jacobo. Gonna abstain for the time being. There's also this bit with "Heather's" camera assistant Ned as well:

"You were a dude this whole time!?"

"Of course Dumkhoff (sp)!"

"…But we cuddled!"

Yeah, Raja Gosnell was the director, but James Gunn was still the co-writer! The dark satire is probably why those movies are guilty pleasures to me.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 18th 2021 at 3:50:11 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#56084: Aug 18th 2021 at 3:35:21 PM

[tup]Moriarity.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#56085: Aug 18th 2021 at 3:45:51 PM

[tup] Demon and Moriarty. Abstain on Jacobo.

Also, let’s not criticize Freddy. It’s not like he thinks that Coolsville sucks.

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#56086: Aug 18th 2021 at 3:48:02 PM

I withdraw my submission of Jacobo (although if it turns out a lot of people do want him after all, PM me. The main reason the post is so weak is that I began to doubt that he qualified halfway through writing it and a lot of people seem to think the same. Another reason is that I want to rewatch the move in the next one to three months and digging up every specific incident of awesomeness or intelligence would imprint them in my memory more and make it harder to be wowed by the suspenseful moments I forget about in the interlude between now and then.

I think I’ll write up him and the monsters as Evil Is Cool or Creepy Awesome instead. Any feedback on that? Any monsters that you think deserve special mission or omission?

Edited by Melinda on Aug 18th 2021 at 4:09:39 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#56087: Aug 18th 2021 at 3:51:29 PM

[up]I remember the movie pretty well and other than that weird sexual moment, I was inclined to say yes. PM me though for clarification on anything about him.

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#56089: Aug 18th 2021 at 4:22:52 PM

Btw, now that JoJo's Bizarre Adventure's Part 8 has wrapped up, I'll be calling the simultaneously-announced Part 9 for discussion.

Edited by Ravok on Aug 18th 2021 at 4:23:10 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#56090: Aug 18th 2021 at 4:49:09 PM

Yes to the Prof.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#56091: Aug 18th 2021 at 5:36:14 PM

future I'm not sure that's a good reason to downvote, that seemed seriously lighthearted.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#56092: Aug 18th 2021 at 5:38:03 PM

And besides, it's not really all that skeevy on the face of it, especially since I'm pretty sure Jacobo wasn't acting out of some kind of creepy attraction to Ned.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Aug 18th 2021 at 5:38:28 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#56093: Aug 18th 2021 at 5:44:54 PM

Yeah I agree that's very mild by our standards. Not a reason to downvote a candidate at all.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#56094: Aug 18th 2021 at 5:45:01 PM

I feel like we're suddenly trying to do some kind of overcorrection on the sexual stuff and it's coming across as rather misguided.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#56095: Aug 18th 2021 at 5:47:51 PM

I wasn't sure if it was gonna be a big no-no or not. Without that actually being a problem, I'm happy to say [tup] to Jacobo in that case.

I remember the movie pretty well, so I'm very happy to answer questions anyone has about it.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 18th 2021 at 5:49:55 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#56096: Aug 18th 2021 at 6:02:23 PM

Yes there, but...

Yeah, guys...the sexual stuff was so we didn't have vile rapists and sexual predators on this list. Like...I kinda think we're letting this get away from us just a bit.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#56097: Aug 18th 2021 at 6:04:46 PM

We are discussing, legitimately, if a Scooby Doo villain using a disguise to get a hero to bring down their guard is too far or not... re-evaluate your priorities for this trope if this is a pressing concern to you.

As for the character? Well how well do they conduct themselves? Melinda mentioned they're mostly cool with their defeat beyond the obligatory meddling kids line. Is that the case in your opinion as well future?

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#56099: Aug 18th 2021 at 6:17:52 PM

Future reminded me of some stuff for Jacobo I'm going to go back and add in the intelligence part.

Jacobo's presence is probably more powerfully menacing than charming like I initially remembered but it seems like more people are thinking that he has a shot so I withdraw my withdrawal of him and will let the votes decide.

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#56100: Aug 18th 2021 at 6:19:19 PM

[up][up][up]

It's possible my line was misinterpreted. He's more stone-faced than graceful as he stands around during the summation, but he doesn't have a Villainous Breakdown from anger or fear either.

Edited by Melinda on Aug 18th 2021 at 6:19:29 AM


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