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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

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IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#55327: Aug 9th 2021 at 9:01:23 AM

No to Christof.

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#55328: Aug 9th 2021 at 9:14:50 AM

Hm, probably the most divisive one I've done for a while. But yah, seems like this one is really going to come down to personal preference, vote how you feel guys.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#55329: Aug 9th 2021 at 9:18:09 AM

For me it's also Christof does not understand Truman at all. He fundamentally thinks he gets him and ways to control him, but Truman repeatedly proves him wrong. This is given a lot of weight with the convo between Sylvia and Christof. She outright says(paraphrasing): you're wrong and he'll prove you wrong.

Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 9th 2021 at 12:18:38 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#55330: Aug 9th 2021 at 9:28:53 AM

@STAR, well how I personally feel is, the magnificence comes from him working up to a position of that much power to begin with. He didn't just get handed godlike power from day 1, he started with only one camera and had to create the whole world himself.

It's the difference between a mortal 'playing god' and an actual God. The mortal has to really work hard for it.

He was still successful for 30 years. Hell the only reason why it fell apart was because of the crew screwing up which Truman picked up on.

Edited by Snowy66 on Aug 9th 2021 at 9:36:59 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#55331: Aug 9th 2021 at 9:32:30 AM

[up][up]That was an exact part of the quote, so yeah, not really a paraphrase.

@STAR What also helps Christof despite his failure to fully understand Truman and that Truman ultimately is able to get away is that for years and years, he's still able to completely prevent him from leaving to massive success. Christof could also freak out the way that he did when he was trying to capsize the boat when Truman walks out the exit, but instead he just calmly removes his glasses and puts his head down on the screen.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 9th 2021 at 9:33:35 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#55332: Aug 9th 2021 at 9:45:39 AM

It’s a bit of a Distinction Without a Difference when he’s so powerful that he’s capable of creating borderline-hurricanes with the touch of a button. I’m not particularly inclined to view 30 years of almost entirely offscreen successes as enough to offset the fact that as soon as Truman noticed something even slightly wrong, it took less than a month for his entire operation to come apart.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#55333: Aug 9th 2021 at 9:45:47 AM

Yes to Cobra Commander, Coffy and Hall, no to Christof.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#55334: Aug 9th 2021 at 9:57:06 AM

@STAR Not really offscreen. We see plenty of those occasions represented. While Christof doesn't fully believe it, he says to Sylvia that if Truman really wanted to leave, he couldn't be stopped and that proved to be right. It's also only because of Christof's editors not paying closer attention or reporting Truman moving into the basement as something unusual—that Christof himself said he wanted them to inform him of sooner—that Truman got the chance to slip away to begin with.

Christof is clearly very Crazy-Prepared in his choices and actions too and yeah, there's also the factor as said by Truman: "You never had a camera in my head!" in that he clearly can't predict Truman's behavior while he can everything else. Plenty of MB plans come undone because of things in a person's head that they can't possibly predict—even though it's possible here that Christof just couldn't help but blind himself to it, be it intentional or not.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#55335: Aug 9th 2021 at 9:59:44 AM

For my next. I discuss the Big Good of the Dresden files (technically he shares that role with Uriel) but uh

Who is Odin?

All-father Odin himself is the Norse God who after his worship was stopped decided to become a figure to help humanity as the world had changed. The result meant the end of his immortality. Odin takes two aliases CEO Donnar Vanderrung and The winter King and one of Mab's right hands Kris Kringle (aka Santa) for his schemes. Odin secretly is behind helping the heroes at various points.

Odin as Donnar Vanderrung secretly bankroll and aid's Gentleman Macrone's criminal empire and helps to get him into control and a signatory of the supernatural accords. Viewing him as a to ensure the city stays safe as Harry's ruthless Shadow Archetype.

Anyway, we first meet him in the flesh in Changes. After Harry's daughter has been kid panned by the red court. Harry goes to Odin who explains that she's been kidnapped and sent to Chichén Itzá. They intend to enact the blood line curse. By killing Maggie, it will create a spell which will reverberate across her family line and exterminate all of her ancestor's relatives including Harry. He explains all this as a way to give Harry the idea of how the curse could work. Realaing this spell could be now used to wipe out the red court itself should it be used on a newborn red court vampire. (The spell will destroy all of them) Now a way to exterimate them for good is available.

Anyway when Harry is backed against the wall against the red kimg. Odin arrives with lea and opens a portal to get defenders to help turn the tide. As planned (this part wasn't planned by him but I know he was hoping for sowmyhign similar), The mother of Harry's daughter is infected and Harry kills her using her to destroy the red court. He wishes Harry good luck after the end.

He returns in cold days, as Kris Kringle it's revealed that Odin takes parts regularly in the wild hunt with his old friend erlking which you know involves destructive and deadly hunts. As Donnar, he reveals to Harry that the outsiders are planning a time-destroying ritual and along with The Erlking as Kris Kringle helps aid Harry in stopping them. And both help him by throwing the fight in order to allow him the wild hunt.

In Skin Game, He reveals to Harry that Donnar and Kringle are the same guy which Harry wasn't her aware of. If you're curious due to some issues he has to use two alias if he wants to be both a help for the human world and an emissary for the winter court.

In peace talks, Ethniu and fomor attack the you know peace talks. She tries to convince him to try and help her destroy humanity but he refuses and instead tries to get her to stop. She naturally doesn't bother and so the fight is on.

Odin helps use his Valkyries and Ehrennjar to seal the entrances into Chicago to stop the fomor while the wild hunt under Erlking rounds tnem. Him, Titania and Erliimg attack her. Their ultimate plan is to weaken her enough so that hArry can seal her. With the help of everyone working together its achieved.

Odin returns in Christmas Story where as a thank you to Harry for saving the day. He gives him his late father's coffee mug. And wishes his merry Christmas from Santa himself.

Magnifcent ?

As the Big Good it's only natural that Odin is a champ in terms of chessmastery in a series where most characters do it. He helps to bankroll and prop up Macronr as a way to keep a strong and noble villanous figure in charge.

He helps to carefully send Harry the info on how to defeat the red court and arranges their extinction along with Mab and Lea through a Batman Gambit. He also aids and helps turn the tide in the fight when they get in trouble. He later helps with the erlkong and arranges the way to defeat the outsiders. And helps to seal the entrances to entrap the Fomor.

Plus is a key component in taking part in the plan to weaken Ethinu enough to seal her. His influence on the series can not be underestimated.

He's also badass, charismatic and friendly. Santa is a badass here.

Bastard?

Trickier part. Odin is a force of good and even gave up his great power to help humanity. He genuinely has the best intentions at heart.

But I think he's just bad enough. He helps bankroll and prop up Macrone's criminal empire. And. Is a rider in the wild hunt. As I said wild hunts are not merciful and kill everything in their path unless you join with them and Odin has been doing them for a long time. Mixed with his shady helping of mab keep power and I think he's just bad enough.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#55337: Aug 9th 2021 at 10:09:59 AM

[tup]Odin

I'll do a tally of the votes after I wake up, for now I sleep

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#55340: Aug 9th 2021 at 10:56:27 AM

[tup]Odin. If I'm reading the EP correctly for extra bastard points doesn't he also manipulate harry into killing his girlfriend?

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#55341: Aug 9th 2021 at 11:33:50 AM

'Yes' to Odin and Coffy, nice work y'all!

I'm a 'No' to Christof, I agree with j that he comes off as a Control Freak whose final scene is undeniably laced with VB undertones as he proclaims he knows Truman better than he knows himself and should stay in the television show (Christof at this point disregarding that the entire audience is rooting for Truman to leave), his voice noticeably raises the longer he rants and demands Truman answer him, then when Truman doesn't cow to him and instead insists on leaving the show, Christof is blatantly shocked into silence and can only watch stunned as Truman leaves. It comes off as way too much of a Control Freak who thinks he knows best getting epically shut down for me to say he's properly "magnificent", IMO. Throw in that his main victim is some poor guy raised his whole life in a manipulative environment where Christof is, as STAR said, basically a god, and I find it even more difficult to gleam much magnificence out of him.

Next Cobra Commander comin' your way!

Who is Edo!Cobra Commander? What makes her a candidate?

Coming from the story "Shadows and Light" as one of the few female Cobra Commanders in history, this Cobra Commander was "an extraordinary woman who overcame extraordinary adversity", hailing from an desert country where she ruthlessly, cleverly slayed a warrior attempting to kill or force himself on her. Though escaping retribution for this crime, she nearly perished in the desert until she found Cobra, who recruited her. In no time she had ascended in the ranks until she was Commander.

Now operating out of 19th century Japan, Cobra Commander prowls the streets, stalking those she sees that have worth as potential Cobra agents. Her latest quarry is a particularly clever thug who she approaches...when a group of other thugs accost them, she singlehandedly murders the attackers with her blades after a short sword fight.

Offering her quarry a place in Cobra, the Commander is shocked when the man refuses, not wanting to be a part of some massive organization. After thinking on his words for awhile, the Commander concocts a new scheme...weeks later, she later tracks down the man who rejected her offer, and orders him to follow her into a shop the thug had robbed in the past. The shop owner, obviously intimidated by Cobra, tells the thug that he will pay him "protection" money henceforth to keep away other criminals, giving him a "respectable" job.

As the thug realizes what he's being paid for, Cobra Commander casually informs him they have six more shops to approach with this same "offer"...ultimately? Cobra Commander uses this system to found the Yakuza itself, setting the foundation for their protection rackets and influence across Japan for centuries to come.

Is she magnificent?

Badass fighter who killed a vicious brute trying to harm her, can fight multiple enemies at once, is one of the few female Commanders thanks to how great she is and she literally creates the flipping Yakuza and its entire protection racket scheme, both of which stick around for ages to come!

Is she a bitch?

As Commander, she recruits criminals to her organization on the reg, and her major function of the story is to show how she laid the groundwork for the Yakuza and its criminal enterprises, most namely offering "protection" to small, intimidated shops.

Final Verdict?

Keeper

Edited by Ravok on Aug 9th 2021 at 11:35:26 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#55342: Aug 9th 2021 at 11:36:30 AM

Based on the EP, [tup] to that Cobra Commander too.

[up]I guess I'll abstain now on Christof then. It's too bad, but it's not surprising. I was trying to definitely give him the benefit of the doubt and play Devil's Advocate.

I watched Last Man Standing (1996) last night and yeah, definitely still approve of Smith. Know I'm very late on that, but wanted to say it anyway.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 9th 2021 at 11:37:12 AM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#55345: Aug 9th 2021 at 11:42:55 AM

[tup]Edo commander

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#55346: Aug 9th 2021 at 11:44:39 AM

[tup] to the Cobra Commanders and Odin.

[tdown] o Christoff, I could look over VB, but the fact he's only manipulating some poor rando and is promptly outwitted by him despite his resources kill his chances for me.

Btw, anyone played A Hat in Time? I may or may not be thinking of a few candidates (one official and the other a fan mod for the game).

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Aug 9th 2021 at 11:45:21 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#55347: Aug 9th 2021 at 11:44:59 AM

[tup]Edo!Cobra Commander.

Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 9th 2021 at 2:49:29 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)

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