During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I am sorry but I personally can't see Decker. He is not a thinker. Which would be fine if he wasn't constantly being played by Serator, who credit he kills. His go to move is to attack first and never really plans anything out. Also he is not very manipulative. Everyone in universe, except for Dayu, hates him. This might just be me but no to Decker. I love the character and am not going to complain if he goes up, but I can't vote him up.
Zen Aku is at least much better at actual planning from memory. Or Camille from Jungle Fury where she grows into being better at planning. Again I am not going to be upset if he gets up, just trying to explain my reasoning.
Expect my own two from Jungle Fury once I get done with my rewatch.
Edited by Bullman on Aug 7th 2021 at 4:05:12 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
to disagree with you on Deker being played by Serrator. Deker only works for Serrator during that time to get his sword immediately betraying him once to got what he wanted. Plus the reason why Serrator was cursed by Deker was because Serrator manipulated Dayu into accepting his deal not because Serrrator manipulated Deker. The fact that Deker betrays Serrator really highlights that Deker can see right through Serrator's BS not letting the Nighlok King fool him, instead fooling him into helping him out in his own plans before he betrays Serrator once he served his purpose.
Yeah I sorry but pretty much the entire time he is being played. He attacts Dayu on his orders. Him not doing it at the end is not him seeing through Serator but just being fed up by him. I know this season pretty well, and I saw no evidenc that he saw throw him. My interruption is not the same as yours. I can't vote yes. Sorry.
Edited by Bullman on Aug 7th 2021 at 4:10:44 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread@Bullman I mean Deker lost his memory of Dayu so of course he would attack her since he perceived her as an enemy. Even so he still betrays Serrator while revealing that he never intended to go along with Serrator’s plans basically using Serrator for his own ends
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 7th 2021 at 5:11:58 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffI mean I could be miremembering but the entire build up is just Decker getting annoyed with Serator. Because he doesn't want the end of the world. There is no evidence before hand that he is on to him. Again I am okay with him going up, but I can't vote him up personally.
Edited by Bullman on Aug 7th 2021 at 4:15:06 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread- The Seventh Seal: Death is the elegant, grim personification of death who neither knows nor cares what awaits beyond the material world. Allowing the knight Antonius Block, in his crisis of faith, to hold a chess game with the reaper, Death proves a cagey and manipulative opponent who heads off Block's every attempt to stay him. Leading the cast members to their deaths and even tricking Block as a priest in confession to discover his strategy, Death is ultimately triumphant but allows Block a final meal with his wife before coming for them both and leading away his victims in a Danse Macabre
- Neverwhere: The Marquis de Carabas is a ruthless, brilliant man of the London Below who deals in favors and manipulation. Tricking others to place them in his debt, the Marquis participates in helping Lady Door and Richard Mayhew due to a debt to Door's late father, who even considered him " bit of a monster" himself. Proving to be loyal, if cagey and dangerous, the Marquis approaches the monstrous assassins Croup and Vandemar, knowing they will kill him, but having left his life and soul with the Old Bailey to later recover since he knows Croup cannot resist bragging about the entire plot to a soon-to-be-dead man.
He might be okay with getting used but that wasn't the only reason I voted no.
Edited by Bullman on Aug 7th 2021 at 4:19:40 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadYeah it’s more of a symbiotic relationship between Deker and Serrator using each other for their own ends. Serrator was using Deker for his own plans while Deker was using Serrator to fix his sword. Once Deker gets his sword fix and learns of Serrator’s plans to crack earth open, Deker betrays Serrator allowing the rangers to kill him
people don’t have to love him in universe. It’s not like they completely despise him. Plus he is extremely popular with the fan base being an Ensemble Dark Horse.
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 7th 2021 at 5:24:39 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffI feel like my other reasons are being ignored. He is not a thinker and no one in universe finds him charming or likeable.
Look okay. I didn't mean to start large scale discussion. I legit just voted and said I don't mind if he goes up. If it will make G feel better just count me as an abstain. I don't care that much.
Edited by Bullman on Aug 7th 2021 at 4:21:42 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The lack of actual planning also gives me pause, but... it's Power Rangers, they have 40-odd episodes a series. He has to have some kind of vaguely intelligent plan under his belt, shouldn't be that hard to dig something up.
And audience-wise he's pretty popular, think that matters more than In-Universe reputation.
Look I gave examples I compared him to. I don't care if he goes up, but when I campare him to other similar villains Zen Aku or Camille, I can't upvote.
As for the unliked inuniverse yes I know it is not a end all be all, but it's one thing to be disliked inuiverse, but every character but one hates him.
I voted the way I voted and don't apricate being accused of exaggerating or jump down on for it when I said I don't mind if he goes up.
I am going to be taking a break from this thread. I have been to stressed for this lately.
Edited by Bullman on Aug 7th 2021 at 4:30:49 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadI don’t think anyone is accusing you of exaggerating anything. I’m just explaining my opinion on why I think he counts. You are entitled to your opinion just as I’m entitled to mine. If you don’t want to upvote him that’s totally fine but I can defend my opinion on why I think he counts
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 7th 2021 at 5:35:04 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffI wasn't talking about you accusing me of anything G, someone else said I might be exaggerating. You brought up good points.
By the way today is my birthday.
Edited by Bullman on Aug 7th 2021 at 4:38:48 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadFrom what I recall(This is one of my childhood shows) and in terms of research he ends up ruining Serrators plan causing a massive Villainous Breakdown on Serrators part before his final defeat from the Rangers.
At the very least I don't really think 'He got played' is a big DQ when that is how it ends.
I think I'll lean Yes to Deker, personally. He's a hilarious 180 from his Sentai counterpart either way.
Bow to the Prototype

Yeah sure.
Didn't think of that one.
But I can
Deker. One of the better things of that season.
I can get ze aku from wild force up by the end of the week.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."