During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
'Yes' to Buddy, solid work! Also will say sure to Manga!Cinder.
I brought up these George quotes for the Ben 10 page and while people voted on them...they didn't specify which one they wanted on the page. So folks, take a look at these both please, and then tell me which one would be better for the Ben 10 MB page:
Ben Tennyson: No matter what you think, sooner or later, that sword will corrupt you!
Sir George: It didn't before. I achieved great things with it. My feats are legendary. Mine have stood the test of time. Mine have inspired millions. What will your legacy be? With what stars will you align? How many times have you known in your heart that your way is best? How many times have your plans been thwarted because the very people you're trying to help won't trust you?
Ben Tennyson: What do you want?
Sir George: To be left alone, so that I may destroy my ancient enemy!
This one could be shortened if we so wish, though the full dialogue hits pretty well for me.
Or this other one by George:
Oh, and for Darker than Black, we all still cool with this quote for the MB page?
Mob boss: "And what do you plan to do with this acquisition, Mr. Smith?"
November 11: "Well, to start, I thought I'd walk through the doors of a rival company and kill 3000 of their best men! Kidding. Actually, I'll just resell it."
Manga!Cinder
Alright, as we near the end of the Sudaverse candidates, let's shift focus back to recurring characters. These next two are ones who have been in more than one game, so let's start with one I've brought up multiple times.
Who is He?
Debuting in The Silver Case, Sumio Kodai, a member of the Heinous Crimes Unit, is revealed to be the mastermind of the Mikumo Boys, a trio of men who seek revenge on the Yukimura Corporation for the ruination of Mikumo 77.
What does he do?
As a child residing in Mikumo 77, Kodai was deafened by the tribe after his friend Eru was raped and murdered by them, thanks to the Corporation dumping chemicals into the river that drove everybody mad. With the help of his friends Hiseki and Fuyuki, who were blinded and made mute, respectively, the trio set out to take revenge on the Yukima Corporation for what they’ve done.
Doing whatever he could to hide his handicap, from learning how to lipread, to bribing and cheating his way into the HCU, to even getting a machine that allowed him to better understand what people are saying, Kodai manages to be a competent officer on his own, helping solve several cases with his partner Tetsugoro Kusabi by his side. But he also has an admiration for Ayame, the criminal working alongside Kamui Uehara. Though it’s not until Case #3 where the truth about him comes out.
In private, Kodai organized the destruction of Yukimura Chairman’s mansion, the kidnapping of the Chairman, and even the act of the Chairman committing suicide by blowing himself and his board members up in an office explosion. With all that settled, Kodai takes a helicopter and destroys the remains of the dormant Mikumo 77, with nothing left remaining, all as a way to put Eru’s spirit to rest. Knowing that this will get him arrested, which it does, Kodai at least feels eased knowing that he has killed his past.
The game's tie-in mid-quel light novel Case 4.5: FACE has Kodai, through his prison cell, assist officer-in-training Sakura in her mission to uncover a series of serial murders involving a Kamui copy struggling with a split personality. Through Kodai’s riddles and discussions about one's inner darkness, she’s able to uncover her true past as an Ayame copy and her life as a Shelter Kid (of which Kodai had suspected from the start), while managing to find the killer in the process.
But that’s not all. Kodai is broken out of prison thanks to Kusabi, but gains amnesia afterwards. Believing himself to be a cheery searcher named Sumio Mondo, Mondo is called over to Lospass Island, where he finds out that he was one of the Eleven Children, who were cloned in 1979 and sent away to live elsewhere. Mondo doesn’t find out his true identity until the end of the game, where he returns to Japan with Kusabi by his side, reclaiming the name of Kodai.
Kodai would make a brief return in The 25th Ward, helping Sakura out on her assignment to uncover a conspiracy involving the ever so confusing and convoluted Kurumizawa and his attempt to corrupt HCU member Shiroyabu. Now working for the HCU again despite everything he’s done, Kodai, still slowly recovering from his experience at Lospass and dealing with his crush on Ayame, is still able to assist Sakura in trying to stop Kurumizawa's plan. His best moment comes in his final scene, where he interrupts Shiroyabu and Kurumizawa’s conversation by shooting Shiroyabu in the head, exclaiming “Kamui can fuck off!”
Is he charming? Intelligent? Able to think on his feet?
Kodai is a complex character who's able to accomplish quite a lot despite his handicap. He’s able to pose as a smart policeman, while fooling everybody, even the player, into believing he has perfect hearing, while secretly organizing a large revenge operation with his friends and succeed knowing that he’ll get caught for it. But at the same time, he genuinely wants to help people, hence why he became an HCU officer in the first place, displaying a personality that's troubled, yet strong and clever. As his entry on the Save the Past wiki best puts it, Kodai’s “a person in pursuit of justice and what is truly right, by any means necessary, and at any cost to himself or anybody.”
And even while he's shown to be mentally recovering in 25th Ward, that doesn't stop him from doing what he can to help Sakura.
But while Sumio Kodai is intelligent, Sumio Mondo… isn’t. While not dumb, Mondo’s portrayed as a hapless loser who allows people to manipulate and walk all over him like a doormat. But I consider Mondo an entirely separate character from Kodai, especially given the events of Flower, Sun and Rain’s ending showing Mondo reverting back to the original Kodai personality. Kodai is shown that even while he’s recovering, he’s still capable of performing great feats and still remains passionate about stopping crime, while retaining his immoral traits like his love for Ayame.
Is he a bastard? Too much of one?
Kodai is at worst a criminal. He was involved in kidnapping, extortion, murder, and other illegal activities for his own personal goals, and even his love for Ayame is presented as morally questionable since she’s very much an artificial criminal who Kodai has some sort of attraction to.
But at the same time, Kodai has a sad backstory, and is shown to care for his friends enough to help them out. He also despises Kamui, showing that despite everything he’s done, he’s still willing to stop crime whenever the chance.
The competition?
Compared to other recurring characters, Kodai stands out for his very morally ambiguous motivations, his ability to overcome his deafness to successfully get his vengeance, and his willingness to never give up, even after he’s gone through quite a lot of traumatic stuff.
Verdict?
Honestly, I think Kodai counts. While most of his MB status would come from the first Silver Case game, installments like 25th Ward show that he's still a compelling anti-hero at heart.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Aug 7th 2021 at 12:23:37 PM
It's Spooky Month!
Buddy, Cinder, Kodai.
I skimmed the earlier EP, the fanfic was finished a long time ago. Sorry about that.
Anyway concurring with others, if it's just a role he's playing than
Izuku.
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 7th 2021 at 3:56:58 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midAlso quick question will we be making a page for the Sudaverse or are the works to disconnected for one as with this that makes 10.
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All these works are connected to each other, so yes, there will be a Sudaverse page. A majority of Suda's games are connected with each other. And this isn't even covering the No More Heroes games, as we'll be getting into that series after the third game comes out.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Aug 7th 2021 at 1:15:44 AM
It's Spooky Month!
for Sumio Kodai.
Also write-ups done.
- Spooks:
- Series 1 and 2: Tessa Phillips is an MI-5 agent who's secretly stealing money from the government. Using fabricated confidential informants, Tessa would repeatedly fool MI-5 into paying the informants small sums of cash so she could later launder the money into her own bank account. After Zoe Reynolds uncovers the truth about Tessa, Tessa simply bribes Zoe with ten thousand pounds to keep her silent. Later on, after Tessa is fired by Harry Pearce for her actions, she seeks revenge against him by posing as Harry's boss and fooling Sam Buxton into delivering confidential information to her in regards to the Chala Cartel. After seemingly agreeing to help MI-5, Tessa later exposes one of their informants and has her employers assassinate the cartel leader, fleeing the country afterwards to avoid prosecution from Harry.
- Series 9: Vaughn Edwards is a mercenary and master deceiver. Seeking out a partner to help him with his schemes, Vaughn recruited John Bateman and used him to conduct unofficial operations for the Britain government. After the two successfully bomb a British embassy, Vaughn helps John kill Lucas North, a soon-to-be MI-5 agent, and steal his identity. Fifteen years later, Vaughn seeks out John in London and blackmails him into stealing a government file known as Albany or else he'll expose his true identity to MI-5 and his former lover, Maya Lahan. After John repeatedly fails, Vaughn goes to Harry Pearce directly and threatens to reveal who was behind the embassy bombing. When John mortally wounds Vaughn to silence him for good, Vaughn uses his dying breath to tell John that he's nothing more than a killer pretending to be a hero.
Ehhhhhhh, I guess Tessa can go at the top of the tree since she appears first? And Vaughn can go between Dempsey and Qasim.
And before anyone asks, we'll worry about whether or not Spooks should get a subpage when I'm done with my last couple candidates. As it stands, the tree isn't too cluttered since most of the candidates are just from one episode, but we're already at eight.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.'Yes' to Kodai
Let's just go ahead and add the quotes I proposed to the respective sandboxes, obviously barely anyone cares lol so if someone has a problem with the quotes I choose days or weeks down the line they can fix it then, many thanks to those who did chime in!
Edited by Ravok on Aug 7th 2021 at 1:42:15 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Shit lemme grab that DTB one fast!
Nvm, I'd need the episode and stuff so I'll just get it next week. Hopefully we get a TNO one too!
@ Tyk, Generally what I like doing for series is series-wide, then seasonal people, then single episodes, I just find it has the most intuitive flow.
Edited by 43110 on Aug 7th 2021 at 4:51:55 AM
to Manga!Cinder, Buddy, and Kodai.
Alright I got another candidate to discuss from another show that I watch. The show in question is called Power Rangers Samurai so lets talk about it
What’s The Work?
Power Rangers Samurai serve as the 18th and 19th season of the Power Rangers series. The group of powers rangers consists of Red Ranger Jayden Shiba, the stoic leader; Blue Ranger Kevin Douglas, the devoted second-in-command; Pink Ranger Mia Watanabe, the big sister; Green Ranger Mike Fernandez, the creative rebel; Yellow Ranger Emily Stewart, the youngest and most innocent, and Gold Ranger Antonio Garcia, the expressive fisherman/tech wiz.
Their goal is to fight the evil Master Xandred and his army of Nighloks, who want to flood the planet with the waters of the Sanzu River to bring about the end of civilization. Of course Xandred isn’t the villain that I’m going to discuss but another recurring villain, namely Jayden’s Arch-Enemy Deker.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Deker was a samurai who was cursed by the Nighlok King Serrator to wander the earth for all eternity as a Human/Nighlok hybrid without any memory of his past life, needing to fight a Worthy Opponent in order to break free from his curse, eventually finding one in Jayden, The Red Ranger.
To ensure that Deker will have his ultimate duel with Jayden, Deker would often make sure to keep Jayden safe so that he’ll be at his strongest when fighting him, usually ambushing Xandred’s Moogers whenever they face the rangers and helping Jayden and his friends in the shadows.
At one point Deker even heals Jayden when he was poisoned by dumping him in a holy springs and hiding him from Xandred’s minions where he explain his curse and need to fight Jayden to break free from his curse. When Antonio finds Jayden, Deker lets the two go while promising that the next time, nothing will stand in his way between their duel.
Deker would make sure that Jayden will fight him by threatening to harm and kill innocent people should Jayden refuse to fight him, forcing Jayden to meet Deker’s demands. The two would then proceed to fight each other while Jayden emerging as the victor, while Deker thanks him for freeing him from his curse.
Unfortunately for Deker, he survives and is still cursed where he works with Serrator in helping him in accomplishing his plans on the promise that he will fix his sword Uramasa.
Once Serrator fixes Deker’s sword he commands him to crack open the seal to both Earth and the Netherworld so that the Senzu river would flood both worlds allowing Serrator to rule both of them, on the pretense that his curse will end. Luckily Deker doesn’t fall for Serrator’s manipulations and instead slashes him foiling his plans, claiming that he will not doom the entire world just to lift his curse, before allowing the rangers to kill Serrator.
He would meet Jayden once more where he challenges him to a duel to the death again which Jayden accepts and the two duel throughout the day. When Deker is about to deliver the killing blow on Jayden he is killed by Keven thus freed from his curse before he passes on while Jayden is rescued by his friends.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
As a Nighlok who lived for centuries, Deker is quite cunning orchestrating several ambushes on his own while manipulating Jayden to fight him by threatening to hurt innocent people should he refuse and even manipulates Serrator to get what he wants by pretending to go along with his plans before betraying him at the best moment. Plus being a badass fight, Deker reeks of Evil Is Cool, making him a major Ensemble Dark Horse which definitely adds to his charm.
What’s The Competition Like?
Deker is one of the most badass, brilliant, and charming villains in Samurai with only Serrator coming close to this. That said Serrator is a Complete Monster whose way too sadistic to count, and even he gets tricked by Deker, thus beating him hear, and overall wins the competition.
Also no Xandred doesn’t come close to this being a volatile and unlikable brute while Dayu was manipulated by Serrator into accepting his deal, while Deker never gets fooled by Serrator only pretended to go along with his plans before he betrays him leading to his downfall, thus he manages to outplay The Chessmaster.
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
Deker is an evil Nighlok who has killed people in the past forces Jayden to fight him by threatening to kill innocent people, doesn’t care if he kills Jayden so long as he gets his duel, and works with Complete Monster Serrator, helping in his plans for world domination, so yeah I’d say Deker is enough of a bastard to be considered.
That said Deker has many redeeming qualities that prevents him from being too much of a bastard. Deker is not sadistic compared to his Sentai counterpart, has a sense of honor only fighting Jayden one-on-one when he’s in top-shape, and doesn’t hold the same hatred towards humanity like other Nighlok not letting billions of lives die just to relive himself from his curse, choosing to do it on his term.
Final Verdict
I will leave it up to you guys to decide.
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffYes to Deker.
Also since I've made it through the stuff to go up this week,
- Lone Star: Buddy Deeds took over as Sheriff of Rio County after masterminding the coverup of the killing of his crooked predecessor Charlie Wade. A well-meaning but also self-interested man, Buddy brings prosperity to the county, diplomatically reducing racial tensions, while also ousting lakefront residents to claim the property for himself. Seen as racist by his son Sam for keeping him from dating a Mexican girl, in reality Buddy forces them apart for being half-siblings born to his beloved mistress.
Edit: Fuck, Deeds, not Wade, clearly have my last writeup on my mind
All good, I'll just put it on the sandbox so I don't forget next week!
Edited by 43110 on Aug 7th 2021 at 4:54:41 AM

Oh right, I remember you brought this up to me some time ago. From what you said and have posted here I'm inclined to look at her as her own character rather than the sadistic and mentally unstable womanchild she is in her original story. We don't hold being a disgusting racist in the books against movie!Dudley so I don't see why this should be any different: yes to Manga!Cinder.