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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#55001: Aug 6th 2021 at 10:07:07 AM

[tup] Ashin.

Christ, that's a lot in the sandbox. What [up] said, you need any help moving things?

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Aug 6th 2021 at 10:15:56 AM

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#55002: Aug 6th 2021 at 10:14:41 AM

Yeah to Death, Vilgax, and Ashin.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#55003: Aug 6th 2021 at 10:31:43 AM

[tup] Death, Vilgax (never thought I'd write that) and Ashin.

Death is very much one of those "No brainer" classic keeps we've had that one might ask why we didn't do them much earlier. And that's probably because there's been a lot of stuff written over humanity's existence lol.

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#55004: Aug 6th 2021 at 10:33:45 AM

[tup]Ashin

Atm have one possible DB quote:

"Enough with this bravado, I know you're still hiding your real power. Maybe you're trying to save it for when you meet Frieza. Well, don't be a fool, you'll never get by me without baring your all. Show me your perfect power so I can finally test the depths of my strength against a worthy opponent."

Captain Ginyu, Dragon Ball Z

Will keep looking for more

Edited by Snowy66 on Aug 6th 2021 at 10:36:20 AM

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#55005: Aug 6th 2021 at 10:54:10 AM

[tup] Snake Eyes, Lex Luthor, Kaiba, Dark Yugi, Death, Vilgax, and Ashin.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#55006: Aug 6th 2021 at 11:15:12 AM

Yes to Death Vilgax (never expected to see him here) and Ashin

[up][up]I'd be fine with that quote if we can't find a better one.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#55007: Aug 6th 2021 at 11:19:45 AM

Got another for now...

What's the work?

Neverwhere was a BBC miniseries written by Neil Gaiman who novelized it as well...

Richard Mayhew is an everyman. He's normal, with a decent job, a fiancee...he lives a normal and mundane life. One day, when on the street with his fiancee Jessica, they stumble upon an injured young woman. Jessica wants to leave him, but Richard stops to assist and soon finds this strange young woman, Door...has entered his life. Richard seems to not even exist above, and is drawn to the London Below, an inverted twin to London with many strange wonders and terrors...Door has the power to open doorways and is the survivor of the slaughter of her family by the terrifying assassins Mr. Croup and Mr Vandemar who are on her tail...R Ichard must protect Door with a strange group of companions..including our candidate.

The Marquis de Carabas.

Who is the Marquis de Carabas?

Not a good man, perhaps not even a brave one, but the Marquis is a mysterious fellow who bargains in favors and information, who got his name from a fairytale...the Marquis is a ruthless and dangerous man who happily manipulates others and doesn't work for free. In fact, his reason for assisting the heroes? While he may have a measure of fondness for them, his ostensible reason for assistance is Door's father, the Lord Portico, once did him a favor he never had a chance to repay. Not liking being in anyone's debt, he seems ready to clear it, but the story is ambiguous for a while if he's the mysterious employer of the terrifying Croup and Vandemar.

The Marquis is a cheerful fellow who ahs crafted himself as a prank on the world and loves ribbing others, but he's an incredibly intelligent and ruthless fellow, having snatched a totem from Portico's study that turns out to be important, as the Marquis planned....The Marquis puts together the plot, discerning the links from Croup and Vanemar and sets up a brilliant gambit: leaving his soul/life in a box, he brings it to the Old Bailey of the London Below and has him safeguard it, before pretending to betray his team to Croup and Vandemar, but bargains for a head start to run from them...he knows full well they're going to kill and torture him to death.

BUT...he knows Croup, the sickening little weasel, will gloat over everything. So when the Marquis is 'dead,' he awakens and goes to crab his life back, before heading to help the heroes, pulling one over on the villains and assisting them in stopping the final plot...the Marquis goes on his way with Croup, Vandemar and their employer Islington hurled into hell

Richard goes back to the London above, but finds out he doesn't quite fit in there anymore...and the novel ends with the Marquis appearing to him, guiding him back to the London Below.

How's he operate?

Beautifully. HE deals in favors. He's charming, funny, witty, occasionally cruel and ruthless...but he deals with a lengthy favors system, constantly wracking them up and sorting them through so that he's always on top. He pulls some beautiful gambits...like one of the best thanatos gambits imaginable, too.

He's a great character and hits every mark.

Is he a bastard?

Yes. He's ruthless, occasionally nasty, is in for himself...Portico even admitted that the Marquis might be "a bit of a monster" and he's willing to leave Richard to die at one point. He's not really a 'good' man, by any stretch of the imagination. But he is, at least, loyal to those close to him and does help out, even sacrificing his life (while fully planning to get better) and he honors his word and his debts.

He also has a complex relationship to his family, both admiring and resenting his elder brother, whom he modeled his uniqueness after.

Conclusion?

An easy, unmistakable yes.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#55008: Aug 6th 2021 at 11:22:15 AM

Hell [tup]Carabas. Fun fact Gaiman envisioned him as a black Doctor.

Which is funny since he beat the twelfth doctor

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#55009: Aug 6th 2021 at 11:23:21 AM

Will vote later but Satoshi I'd love if you would, thanks for offering to help!

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#55012: Aug 6th 2021 at 11:33:07 AM

Uh btw for the Dresden files tree. If it's supposed to be order of appearance.

Martin should be before Lara.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#55013: Aug 6th 2021 at 11:33:11 AM

[up][up] No problem. Thanks for letting me.

[tup] Marquis.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#55015: Aug 6th 2021 at 11:46:49 AM

Alright, how does Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Yu Gi Oh look?

It's hilarious how of the characters listed in the "manga and second anime series" section, only Pegasus counts in the anime continuity (not counting DSOD since that's manga continuity).

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Aug 6th 2021 at 2:49:18 PM

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#55016: Aug 6th 2021 at 11:47:19 AM

Okay, seems we have something of a problem.

So you remember that character Sean that Twas approved from the short horror film duology? Well while the first film So Pretty is still up on YouTube the second film So Dark has gone from unlisted where everyone with the link could view it to private where the creator of the video must give you access to view it.

Proof:

  • So Pretty and So Dark: Sean is a charismatic vampire with a conscience who isn't above being vicious towards those who truly deserve it. Killing a pedophile, Sean lets himself get arrested in order to lure in FBI agent Wilburn in order to confirm the immoral actions she has committed against his kind. Exploiting a woman's desire for vampirism to overcome her drug addiction into freeing him, Sean forcibly vampirizes Wilburn after she kills the woman, and leaves her out in the sun to burn, finally avenging his fallen kin.

What do we do regarding this situation?

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#55017: Aug 6th 2021 at 11:55:55 AM

Yes to Dark Yugi, Death, Vilgax, Ashin, and Marquis.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#55018: Aug 6th 2021 at 12:31:50 PM

[tup]Yugi, Death, Vilgax, Marquis.

A bit iffy on Ashin, but leaning [tup]. I'm wondering if letting the entirety of korea suffer for vengeance might be a bit too much Disproportionate Retribution, but judging by your EP that doesn't seem to be her goal when giving the resurrection plant to the royal physician. It seems to be here's the plant, do what you wish.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#55019: Aug 6th 2021 at 1:07:49 PM

[tup] to Death, Vilgax, Ashin and the Marquis

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#55020: Aug 6th 2021 at 1:14:18 PM

[tup] for Death, Vilgax, Ashin, and Marquis.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#55021: Aug 6th 2021 at 2:01:59 PM

[tup] to Marquis

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 6th 2021 at 5:53:22 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#55022: Aug 6th 2021 at 3:58:27 PM

[tup] Marquis.

Not to be this guy, but I was looking through Megatron's character page from Beast Wars and... does he really keep? It says that by the time of the sequel show, he's devolved into an egotistical Omnicidal Maniac with a hatred of organic life. I haven't seen the show myself so I don't know how bad he actually gets, but that doesn't sound very magnificent. Is he one of those hold-outs from back when guys like the DCAU Darkseid were considered MBs?

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Aug 6th 2021 at 4:02:13 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#55023: Aug 6th 2021 at 4:06:26 PM

The thread has decided it being a kids show neuters what would otherwise be disqualifying actions. Apparently he's not super-sadistic like Darkseid is. This is previous discussion that I could find.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#55024: Aug 6th 2021 at 4:14:54 PM

I'm that one weirdo that, as a kid, caught a fair amount of Beast Machines but didn't really watch Beast Wars aside from a couple of episodes, and I did watch the finale of BM.

I think Megatron may be at that point of Black Shadow from the F-Zero anime where he's so grandiose he kinda gets a pass even if he's omnicidal. But I am much less knowledgeable of the lore of Beast Wars than others here.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#55025: Aug 6th 2021 at 4:26:45 PM

Just wondering, when do you plan on doing the next batch? Not trying to rush you, but it's been weeks. If you need help, just ask.


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