During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
New topic, new post. From YMMV Justified:
- Magnificent Bastard:
- Boyd is arguably a downplayed example. He's an expert Manipulative Bastard. He comes up with great plans, and can alter them on the fly, surviving everything the rest of the criminal world can throw at him. Yet despite that, he never really wins out, and most of his energies are directed at just staying afloat.
- Ellstin Limehouse is a straight example. Over the course of Seasons 3 & 4 he outmaneuvers Boyd, Quarles, Raylan, Augustine, and every other player in the area, dodges prosecution, and comes out looking like the good guy.
I wrote both of these. When I did, Boyd absolutely did hit every qualifier for the trope, despite barely staying afloat (and given he was leading one of the weaker criminal organizations around that wasn't really a knock against him). Then Seasons 5 and 6 happened. To say they were bad would be an understatement, and they more or less undid all of Boyd's character development and made him into a petulant thug by end. I'm bitter as hell about it, and would prefer to consider them discontinuity, but alas, I can't leave a guy up based on that.
Limehouse, conversely, survived Season 6 with his MB credentials intact and his status as the series' smartest villain untouched. I'll give him a full EP sometime shortly.
Boyd might count as an example that later became a non-example. We cut such examples from Complete Monster but other tropes sometimes keep them (as e.g subverted examples), not sure what procedure is preferred here.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanIn regards to Jafar from Return of the Jafar, his only mistake was that he was a Jerkass Genie to Abis Mal enough for him to pause for a second to wish for Jafar's freedom (as he wouldn't be sure if Jafar will give him all the treasure promised to him) but had Aladdin not shown up, it would have been resolved quickly. Otherwise, he was efficiently at keeping Iago in line to do his dirty work (and Iago is not the kind of character who would obviously turn good on a dime).
The reason why Jafar is a Smug Snake in the first movie is because the heroes knew that Jafar has a big fat ego and deliberately feed his narcissism. Jasmine by pretending to fall in love with him and Aladdin by taunting him that he's not as powerful as the Genie.
In the sequel, Jafar successfully cows Abis Mal into submission and comes close in killing Aladdin all while technically not breaking the first rule of being a Genie. For someone bounded by the rules, he is smart enough to find loopholes and exploit them to his advantage. And even when his former parrot, Iago, has no reason to side with Jafar after being rewarded with a life of luxury at the palace, Jafar manages to have Iago betray his newfound friends with fear. And Jafar reserves Evil Gloating for Aladdin when he is literally seconds away from execution and even then, it's only for a few seconds of showing his true face. No song or dance number; just the thought of Aladdin realizing the truth all too late after being led to believe that Jasmine truly hates him is enough for him. A far cry from the first movie.
The undoing of Jafar here is not due to his ego, but rather due to the unlikely goodness within Iago. Iago did two crucial events that saved the day: He freed the Genie who then saved Aladdin from certain death; And he used the last of his strength to kick Jafar's lamp into the lava which kills Jafar for good.
So I say that Jafar in Return of Jafar can be considered a Magnificent Bastard.
As for Complete Monster who can also be Magnificent Bastard, I think Lex Luthor from Superman vs. the Amazing Spider-Man may be a contender due to the fact that his evilness lies in the fact that he is willingly to destroy the Earth to prove his genius. And considering it's the Silver Age, destroying planets with weather dominating machines is the norm of evil super villains.
Of course, it's been a long while since I've last looked into that story arc and the page example only provided this:
- Magnificent Bastard: Lex has plans for almost any eventuality.
It needs a more elaborate rewrite.
edited 15th May '18 2:07:59 AM by Shadao
First up
to Vulture. Thanks G
Alright here’s MCU Zemo’s EP. I’ll let somone like ambar or overlord handle his comic version.
Whats the work ?
Captain America: Civil War is the 2016 sequel to both Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Avengers: Age of Ultron, directed like Winter Soldier by Joe and Anthony Russo. Civil War marks the 13th overall film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and the first film of the MCU's Phase 3. It is based on the Civil War limited series, albeit on a much smaller scale. The film also marks the beginning of a cross-company partnership between Marvel Studios and Columbia Pictures with the inclusion of Spider-Man.
Following the dissolution of S.H.I.E.L.D. in Winter Soldier, one of Tony Stark's creations going on a killing spree in Age of Ultron and Scarlet Witch's accidental destruction of a building while saving Captain America during a terrorist attack in Africa, the collective governments of the world ratify an accord to regulate the actions of "enhanced individuals". This polarizes The Avengers and other superheroes, who split into two factions. On one side is Steve Rogers/Captain America, who fears superhumans becoming political pawns after the events of Winter Soldier. On the other is Tony Stark/Iron Man, who becomes a major proponent of the Sokovia Accords as atonement for his actions in Age of Ultron. The former allies now find themselves facing each other in a battle that will change their lives, and the world, forever.
Who is the bastard ?
Zemo in this contuinty was once a member of the Sokovian armed forces. He had a family which he genuinely loved with his son being a fan of the avengers. Howvever this happiness was not to last, sadly this was not to last and his family perished in a confrotataion with the avengers.. For anyone curious Sokovia was the place ultron destroyed during age of ultron. Though Ultron was defeated and destroyed by the Avengers, Zemo angrily blamed them for causing his family's death and vowed to destroy the team at all costs. Howver Zemo was smarter than most MCU villains, he knew he couldnt beat them with force or muscle as others had tried that and failed, so decided to go with a more manipulative move to take them down.
Ambushing some HYDRA agent (Vasily Karpov) who was part of the winter soldier project. Knowing that said HYDRA agent would probably figure something was wrong if he used direct force, he went the subtle route and pretended his car was broken and had Vasily let him into his house. When he was in his house zemo attacked vasily and subduded him before tying him upside down above a sink slowly filling with water. Zemo finds The winter soldier book among Karpov’s Hydra files. He than politely introduces himself and demands Vasily tell him about the the assassination of Howard and Maria Stark which had occurred back in the year 1991. Zemo though initially tries to get Kaprov to talk, though seeing that Karpov wouldn’t budge, Zemo leaves Karpov to drown in his own sink.
Using the info he obtained from the book, he sets up a gambit. He bombs the building where the slovokia accords are taking place (basically a framework that would place enhanced people under government oversight, and a burgeoning cause of friction between Captain America, who refused the oversight, and Iron Man, who supported it) which killed wakandian king T’Chaka and which spurs his son, T’Challa to want to get revenge. Framing Bucky Barnes who was there as being responsible for it.
Having been hunted all around the world for his apparent involvement in T'Chaka's death, Bucky Barnes was eventually captured and put into the custody of the Joint Counter Terrorist Centre. Knowing this, Zemo intercepts Theo Broussard (the psychologist meant to evaluate Barnes before his extradition to wakanda and kills him and pulls a Kill and Replace on him).
He than continues to practice using the trigger words from the winter soldier book that would make Bucky lose control ,. Zemo later has an ally of his deliver a bomb to a power station.
Arrving at the Joint Counter Terrorist Centre, zemo interrogates Barnes whose locked up, being very careful to do a true evaluation ince he knows about the cameras watching him, thepower than goes out since the power station that was close exploded due to the bomb.
With the power off, Zemo than reactivates Barne’s Winter Soldier programm using the rigger words he obtained from the winter soldier book. While bucky tries to stop him, Zemo is able to finish saying the codewords just as Barnes broke free and became his willing assassin. Zemo than asks the now brainwashed Barnes about the mission report on the death of Howard Stark.
With the info he needed now obtained, Zemo orders Barnes to fight kill anyone who attempted to stop him before going into a helicopter and escaping to make everyone think he genuinely was guilty of the bombing, Zemo was than confronted by Captain America and Falcon who attempted to save Barnes. Rogers demanded to know what Zemo wanted but Zemo simply said he wanted to see an empire fall. Before steve could put zemo into custody, bucky moved forward and attacked, knocking Sam Wilson onto the floor before using his Prosthetic Arm to throw Rogers down an elevator shaft. Zemo than quickly makes his escape.
Bucky and steve reunite with knowledge of 5 other winter soldiers being found which are in statis which them deciding to stop there reawakening. Well the avengers fight each other in an airport fight till there at a standstill.
Zemo traveled to Siberia but not before listening to his Zemo listens to his late wife's last voice message seemingly to reawaken those 5 from cryostasis. Boarding a plane to Siberia, he makes a phone call to his old hotel to ask for his usla breakfast, knowing the maid will come and discover Theo’s body, allowing those who were following him to find out who he is and follow him to his current location by tracing the call.
Zemo discovers the remaining Winter Soldiers and kills all 5 by shoting them in the head with a single bullet each, to make sure the danger they pose to the world may never be realised. When Captain America, the Winter Soldier and Iron Man arrive after being on his tail, Zemo greets them and reveals how he lost everyone he’d ever loved during the Battle of Sokovia and that he’d orchestrated all of these events just to see the Avengers fight one another. .
To do this, he plays a video of surveillance footage from 1991 which shows Barnes whose under the control of HYDRA under the control killing Tony Stark's parents. This revelation of course set the three heroes against each other, with Zemo simply moving outside.
Zemo than awaites for the result of what the battle will be, in the snow, simply content and fine that he’d split the Avengers apart as they fought each other.
While simply watching the landscape, he decides to listen to his wife's voicemail one more time, just before dleting it. T’Challa arrives and finds him and they discus Zemo’s involvement in the death of T’Challa’s father withZemo even apologising fo his involvement. T’challa wanting to prove himself better than zemo, refuses to kill him. Content with his plan to split the avengers having worked, Zemo attempts suicide but Tchalla stops him and he’s imprisoned.
Zemo is later shown at the headquarters of the prison with Ross mocking him that his plan failed. With Zemo simply responding : "Did it?"
What’s he like and his competition?
Zemo is very quiet and reserved and genunily Affably Evil . He blends into the background quite well and uses his seemingly normalcy and charm to his advantage intentionally manipulating people like Visaly and Theo into getting his trust before killing them and others by appearing to just be a perfectly normal guy.
He’s also one step ahead of the avengers and plays them against each other. Framing Bucky to get him out of hiding as well asplant an apple of discord within the avengers about his innocence which creates the first fractures. He uses the trigger words on bucky to get get him to escape and lengthen the cracks within the avengers and finally shows Tony the tape of Bucky killing his parents, sending him on a murderous rage which helps break them.
As for thinking on his feet. Not everything like the skovokia accords was planned by him, yet he’s able to think and refit them into his big plan by taking advantage of the siging to set up his plot by bombing the building.
As far as his competition in the wider MCU goes. For a guy with no superpowers, isn’t an alien or anything or even a fighter. He achieves what those villains could never dream off, he breaks the avngers.
Who much of bastard is he. Is he too much of one?
Zemo is definitely a bad guy. His bomb takes out innocent people and he kills several over the course of the film. That being said compared to other mcu psychopaths like clairvoyant and danial whitehall, he really isn't that bad.
And he does have many redeeming qualities as well : Zemo genuinely loves his family and there his whole motivation for doing this. With him listening to the voicemail message left by his deceased wife to remind himself of his motives against the Avengers.
He's also genuinely Affably Evil and even aplogises to T'Challa for killing his father and even offers to let him kill him.
Finally he suffers no Villainous Breakdown of any sort or isn't a Smug Snake of any kind with even his defeat simply him being content at victory and fine with death.
Conclusion?
A quieter and more reserved take on this trope than others but I say he passes.
edited 15th May '18 2:04:44 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."![]()
I'll second the notion that Jafar is a great example of how a Smug Snake can successfully transition into a Magnificent Bastard. If a formerly heroic character can become a Complete Monster, I don't see how the same logic couldn't be applied to this trope given decent Character Development.
On a different note, since Hans Gruber and at least one Expy of him have been qualified already, have we discussed his brother Simon yet? From what I remember of the third Die Hard, he'd readily qualify as well.
I'll throw in a
for Zemo. Not just a MB, best MCU villain IMHO.
edited 15th May '18 2:11:41 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"Continuing on since Lighty did an EP from Stargate. I decided to check there for examples. This is what i found :
From Stargate SG-1:
- Magnificent Bastard: Ba'al
From Star Gate Atlantis
- Magnificent Bastard:
- The Wraith "Todd" lives this as a matter of course; manipulating enemies with style is like breathing to him.
- Sheppard also gets a moment like this every so often, including and especially at the end of the series, when he's trying to talk "Todd" into helping them fight another Wraith. "Todd" asks Sheppard why he should do it when it would leave "Todd" the prisoner of Atlantis and without any leverage.
Todd: Am I supposed to be enticed by this offer?Sheppard: No. I'll probably kill you anyway. But don't forget, this Wraith betrayed you and got away with it. For no other reason, you might want to do it out of pure spite.Todd: Youuuu know how to talk to me, John Sheppard! (evil laughter)
First one is Zero Context Example and other doesn't explain any of his actuall Deeds of magnefince
edited 15th May '18 2:37:25 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I can definitely say that Sheppard doesn't count, he's a Colonel Badass Guile Hero. Todd does qualify, give me some time and I'll happily effortpost him.
Ba'al is bit trickier, because he's a lot more arrogant than Todd despite being more effective than pretty much any other Goa'uld (for one thing, he didn't buy into his own A God Am I propaganda). For example, I find it a bit unlikely for a true Magnificent Bastard to get thrown in the occasional Politically Incorrect Villain role. Making a bunch of misogynistic comments at Carter and then getting decked in the face to show how pathetic he is? That's not magnificent, it's just petty.
He did outlive the rest of his ilk through a combination of luck, cunning, and cloning himself, but he's also often overconfident of his own abilities. It became a bit of a Running Gag how many times he got killed, and he was often in over his head, like his whole Enemy Mine with the good guys in 'The Quest' when he required their help to save him from a petrification trap that he just blundered into. Okay, he was smart enough to send his expendable mooks in first, but he was still left holding the bag with no back-up plan before they found him. Then in Stargate: Continuum, he pulls off an incredibly effective plot that makes him the Goa'uld Emperor and on the brink of invading Earth, but the problem is that he becomes too pragmatic and gets betrayed by his Stupid Evil allies. He does have his moments of competence or successfully manipulating the good guys to his advantage, but all in all, I think he misses the mark.
edited 15th May '18 3:02:28 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"Yes to Zemo, thanks Mir.
Cut all non-examples and I thought the best thing to do would only be listing the examples that show the trope being Played Straight, as we do with CM.
Simon absolutely does count and I'll be giving him an EP later.
That's okay, I'll have the rest cut and Mir will do a rewrite that expands on his credentials.
edited 15th May '18 7:03:39 AM by 43110
To Zemo
Does anyone else want to vote for the Vulture, the other MCU baddie. So far I got 4
and 0
.
Here’s the link to the Vulture’s Effortpost
edited 15th May '18 7:52:26 AM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffMCU Zemo is an easy keep. Less sure about the Vulture, since he's in a universe with Zemo. Any thoughts on the Durandal write-up?
Anyway, EP for Limehouse.
Who is Ellstin Limehouse? What has he done?
Limehouse is the unofficial leader of Noble's Holler, an African-American community descended from freed slaves and sequestered in an isolated holler, away from the rest of the (very racist) Harlan County. Limehouse operates at the fringes of the criminal world, his race giving him a sense of neutrality among the conflicts between the mostly white gangs of Harlan, acting as a banker for other gangsters, including marijuana kingpin (queenpin?) Mags Bennett, and a seller of false identities. He also uses Noble’s as a de facto women’s shelter, since not even the stupidest, drunkest, abusive white man is usually prepared to pursue his wife into Noble’s.
In Season 3, Limehouse is in possession of three million dollars left to him by the late Mags Bennett, money which her son Dickie Bennett, and Harlan gang lord Boyd Crowder, both want, first fighting against one another for it, and then forming a very strained alliance in order to get it. Association with Boyd, and a screw-up by his right-man, Errol, who wants Limehouse to take over Harlan, also puts Limehouse in the midst of the brewing war between Boyd and Detroit Mobster Robert Quarles, when Errol and his friend Tanner Dodd, frame Quarles for attacking one of Boyd’s clinics (killing Limehouse informant Trixie in the process).
Limehouse arranges for Tanner’s death so that no information relating to Errol’s failures can be traced back to him or to Noble’s. He backs Quarles’ candidate for Sheriff against Boyd’s, then, when it becomes clear just how insane Quarles is, shifts support to Boyd’s candidate, Shelby, ensuring his victory. He convinces Boyd to rob a bank that he believes has Mags’ money in it, and sends Quarles, now out of options and searching for a safe place to lie low, to kill Boyd at different bank in exchange for protection. He then contacts the Marshal’s service and informs them of where Boyd and Quarles will both be. When this plan goes awry, he instead sends Quarles to Johnny’s bar to ambush Boyd, where both Quarles and Boyd are nearly blown up by Dixie Mafia hitman Wynn Duffy. In the meantime, he also collaborates with Marshal Raylan Givens to have Dickie Bennett arrested, and to give Mags’ money to her foster daughter, Loretta McCready as Mags always wanted. When Quarles turns up in the season finale to try to extort money from Limehouse, Limehouse and Raylan engage him in a fight that ends with Limehouse severing Quarles’ arm with a meat cleaver (Quarles, high out of his mind on Oxy, doesn’t even feel it). We also discover that Limehouse has been working with Boyd’s treacherous cousin Johnny, who has been selling him information about Boyd, while Limehouse encourages him in his rebellion against Boyd.
Limehouse returns in Season 4, when prostitute Ellen May, and her protector, Sheriff Shelby (actually former Detroit Mobster Drew Thompson) take shelter in Noble’s from Boyd and Boyd’s girlfriend, Ava, who want to hand Drew over to the Detroit Mob, and kill Ellen May for having witnessed Ava commit a murder. Limehouse offers to sell them both to Ava and Boyd for $150 000 apiece. When Ava arrives with the money, Limehouse gives her Drew, robs her of the other $150 000 and tells her she’ll need another $300 000 to get Ellen May. He also informs Ava, who used to hide out with him to avoid her abusive husband, Bowman, that he doesn’t recognize her anymore and that she needs to stop doing this to herself. While Ava goes back to Boyd to try to raise the money, Limehouse lets Ellen May go free.
Limehouse makes his last appearances in Season 6, during the show’s epic derail. He remains mostly in character, however. He cuts a deal with Ava, who now knows she needs out of her relationship with Boyd, in order to steal some of his money. He then alerts Boyd to what Ava has been up to, turning the two against one another. When Boyd’s empire starts to collapse and he comes to Limehouse for new identities for himself and Ava so they can get out of town. Limehouse rips him off again, then tells him that he’ll help Boyd, but if only if Boyd, violent criminal and ex-white supremacist, gets out of town and never comes back. After Boyd is imprisoned, Limehouse does help Ava get out of town, provided she too never comes back, then exits the county himself before Raylan can question him.
What's his competition like? How does he perform against them?
In Season 3, Limehouse is up against series' Villain Protagonist Boyd Crowder, series' antihero Raylan Givens, and Arc Villain and seasonal Big Bad Robert Quarles. Boyd's a near miss for this list and Raylan's no dunce himself, while Quarles is, to mangle metaphors, a Great White Shark Out Of Water—he's got no real idea how things work in Harlan, and no chance at learning, but is so physically dangerous, emotionally unstable, and mentally unwell that he's still a viable threat to every single character on the show. He also has to cope with Dickie Bennett's increasingly harebrained schemes to reclaim the money he thinks his mother left him. By the end of the season, Limehouse has managed to pit all of these characters against one another, having Dickie arrested by Raylan, Boyd out of the way (and dealing with Johnny's smouldering internal rebellion), and Quarles disarmed and out of the picture (whether Quarles died or not is not clear). He gives Loretta the money Mags wanted her to have and walks out scott free.
In Season 4, Limehouse is up against Boyd again, and Boyd's backers in the Detroit Mob. He rips off Boyd to the tune of $300 000 and walks. In Season 6, when the character writing was at its weakest, he again rips off Boyd, this time for $150 000 while nearly running her out of town, further turns Boyd and Ava against one another, helps Ava flee town before the Marshals or Boyd can get her, and disappears before Raylan can question him. In every season he appears in, Limehouse winds up as the only real winner while everyone else loses.
Is the character a Chessmaster? Is he a Manipulative Bastard? Is he capable of thinking on his feet?
Limehouse's network of informants (including many of Harlan County's hookers) keep him well-appraised of what's going on in the world; as Boyd comments at one point, Limehouse knows more about Boyd's business than Boyd does. From the start of Season 3, his intention is to fulfill his deal with Mags, and when these plans are complicated by Errol's failures, Dickie's escape and then release from prison, and Quarles' arrival and subsequent descent into madness, he ably adjusts the plan, moving back and forth between Quarles and Boyd, and bringing in the Marshal's service when he has to, while using selected killings to clear up any loose ends. He's got a goal in mind from the start, and the ability to put a lot of pieces in play, but is highly flexible about how he gets there, altering the plan as needed, and playing on Quarles, Dickie, Boyd, and Raylan's personal foibles to get them to whatever he needs them to do at any given time.
How much of a Bastard is he? Does he have redeeming features? Is he charismatic?
Limehouse maintains discipline over his henchmen by giving them one of two choices when they screw up: they can promise never to fail him again, but be executed if they do, or they can clear their debt to him by scalding their hands with lye. See here
to watch him offer this choice. He's more than prepared to commit murder in order to cover up Errol's mistakes, and he shifts allegiances and breaks deals with ease when it's most convenient for him.
At this core, however, Limehouse absolutely believes that he is protecting his community and doing what is best for Noble's Holler. He tells Errol to make things right with Trixie's family after Errol gets her killed, and makes an effort to save Ava from herself, eventually getting her out of town. And of course there's his stepping in where there are no women's services, protecting battered wives, girlfriends, and prostitutes, from abusive husbands, boyfriends, and pimps (in what should be noted to be a complete inversion of the usual negative stereotypes about black men and white women). His letting Ellen May go is a key moment, where we get to see exactly where Limehouse draws his lines and what he will not become a party to.
As far as charisma goes, Mykleti Williamson plays Limehouse with a folksy charm that never wears thin. He's one of the most likeable characters on the show, and you're always pleased to see him get away with whatever crime he's pulled off this time.
Final verdict?
Ellstin Limehouse got away with everything. He stole nearly a half a million dollars from Boyd over the course of two seasons, eliminated Robert Quarles, protected Noble’s Holler from other gangsters (if not always from sudden searches by Raylan’s Marshals), set Loretta on the path to becoming the Harlan queenpin, and did it all without compromising his personal set of principles. Whether up against local criminals like Boyd and Dickie, the Detroit Mob, or the US Marshals, Limehouse was always too smart and too useful to everyone else, to be caught or killed, and even after the show fell apart in the last season, the writers still respected him enough to keep him in character and as untouchable as ever. Add a very likeable performance by Mykleti Williamson and you’ve got Justified’s greatest criminal mastermind, hands down.
What do we think?
Limehouse. Sounds like an interesting villain.
Durandel write-up looks pretty good.
So the main page has this in literature:
- Steerpike of the Gormenghast novels. Mr Machiavelli and one of the greatest Magnificent Bastards ever. Rises from a kitchen boy to the unofficial ruler of the castle, very nearly manages to pervert the Groan line and install himself as lord of all, spies on everyone through an ingenious mirror system he's created, single-handedly torches part of the building, does away with more than one Groan and is never, ever, ever short of a comeback. And, in case that wasn't enough, manages to make damn near every girl that looks at him fall in love with him, despite the fact that he's pretty weird-looking (later deformed), if not downright ugly. All of this at the age of SEVENTEEN.
Ummh Lighty you got him approved as a Complete Monster, do you have any thoughts on him counting for this ?
edited 15th May '18 8:39:48 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."![]()
Don't see the issue. Vulture has no ambitions of being schemer on the level of Zemo, he is a simple career street criminal.
In fact, he wants to AVOID attention.
edited 15th May '18 8:53:24 AM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianThere's an easy yes for Limehouse.
One other I want to propose...
What's the Work?
Space Battleship Yamato, notably it's most recent remake, is a series concerning the invasion of earth by the Gamillas Empire, an alien race dedicated to colonizing earth and potentially iwping out humanity. Without options, to save their world, a battleship known as the Yamato sets forth to the distant world of Iscandar, to gain aid to save their planet, while being pursued by the Gamillas and their supreme leader...the ruthless, brilliant, charismatic Abelt Dessler.
Who is Dessler and what's he do?
Dessler has ruled the Gamillas as a dictator for over a century. A handsome, charismatic, brilliant man dedicated to overseeing a vast expansion of the Gamillas empire throughout space. Now, Dessler through sheer military acumen, has conquered vast swaths of territory for Gamillas, but has also crafted a way to maintain his control: once a territory is conquered, Dessler extends a chance for the people there to achieve status within greater Gamillas society....and even extends them the chance to become full citizens of the Gamillas empire with all the rights and privileges of any trueborn Gamillas....which ensures he has far less to worry about in terms of dealing with rebellions or uprisings. Dessler's minister of propaganda is even a former slave he himself rescued and recruited. By the time of the series, Dessler ha focused his conquest on planet Earth...and he's surprised to hear the technologically inferior Earth has defeated his initial force. Dessler exiles the force's commander as punishment, but realizing the empire's 1000th anniversary is coming and wanting to know more of the earthlings' prowess, he gives the commander a chance for redemption in attacking Yamato...which provides entertainment for the masses and a chance for Dessler to win either way: should the commander win? We have victory and Dessler gets to look generous. Should he lose, Dessler is rid of an incompetent and gets more insight to the Yamato's abilities....even when they lose, Dessler takes the chance to posthumously award them full Gamillas citizenship, again appealing to the masses in a brilliant way.
Now, publicly dismissing the Yamato as little concern, Dessler assigns his best general to dealing with them, but internally? He knows they're more a threat than he ants to publicly acknowledge and wants them eliminated quick. As the Yamato defeats Gamillas more and more, Dessler finds himself plotted against. Zoellik, a chief of the armed forces, decides to assassinate Dessler...knowing an attempt is coming, Dessler fakes his own death in the attack, allows Zoellik to falsely accuse loyal officers of the crime....and then reveals himself at the right moment, having Zoellik summarily executed by Dessler's loyal men
Now, the planet Iscandar? Is actually Gamillas's neighbor, and Dessler has a close perosnal connection with its Queen Starsha. When his best general, Dommel, is killed capturing a human woman named Yuki, Dessler decides to use the opportunity and presents Yuki as Starsha's sister (Yuki and Starsha's actual sister look a LOT alike)...and at Dommel's memorial? Dessler publicly announces Yuki is there to support a 'final unification' between her world and Gamillas, which will lure in the Yamato for Dessler to eliminate, and also force Iscandar to submit to him.
in the ensuing battle, Dessler displays brilliant, but ruthless strategies, even showing himself willing to sacrifice wide swaths of Gamillas to defeat Yamato....finally defeated, Dessler is thought dead, but instead gather his loyalist forces and plots to reclaim his empire, by seizing Yamato. In a brilliant gambit, he has the Yamato ambushed and boarded at the right second, taking control of the ship deck by deck. Dessler, however, is defeated at the end and driven back, where his flagship is supposedly destroyed, as Dessler attempts to bring down the Yamato. That's the end of the series, but the coming sequel OVA do reveal his survival, as in he original series, when his briefly recruited by a new empire.
What's his competition like and how's he perform against them?
In a word? Brilliantly. Dessler outplays just about anyone who seeks to usurp him and remains the Yamato's most potent threat. Multiple times, when he takes the field, Dessler has them on the ropes and comes very, very close to victory, only bested by circumstances outside his control or by far superior tech he didn't foresee being used.
Is he a chessmaster? Manipulative? Capable of thinking on his feet?
God, yes. Dessler plays politics like a champ and manipulates his empire through his charisma and strategic brilliance. Just note above in how he plays Zoellik, and how he deals with a failed commander. Besides that, though, Dessler plays speed chess like a pro, constantly re-adjusting to new circumstances and adjusting his plans.
How much a bastard is he? Redeeming Qualities? Is he charismatic?
Dessler is exceptionally charismatic, being beloved by the empire and able to unite new worlds through conquest and then making them think it's an honor to rise in Gamillas society. He totaly practices it, too: he does allow an equal outcome of opportunity for those who prove themselves, and genuinely values talent around him. He is also ruthlessly intolerant of people who breach his standards, at one point dropping one Gamillas guy who's being an overly bloodthirsty dick down a trapdoor and comment "Gamillas does not require such a vulgar man as that." He is also ruthless...he is a conqueror, will happily wipe out what resists him, manipulates people to great extent and is willing at the end to sacrifice tons of his own people to win. However...Dessler does have, he believes, well intentioned goals as he believes the universe is better off under his control. He does value Queen Starsha's ideals of peace, but confuses it with his desire for control. And he does genuinely love Starsha, having been deeply affected by her and frequently thinks of her. He also deeply values his aide and is genuinely shocked and horrified when she is killed during his attempted takeover of the Yamato.
Conclusion?
I'd say Dessler is an easy, easy keep. He totally averts Fantastic Racism by making his empire far more egalitarian (even if his intentions are at least partially pragmatic), frequently displays exceptional political and tactical acumen, manipulating militaries and political systems like a champ, while maintaining a wonderfully charming and charismatic air all the while, who rarely loses his cool.
Handy 'Yes' to Dessler and Zemo, Toomes...huh, honestly never really saw him as an MB despite being my favorite MCU film villain until Thanos, buuuut.... there's really nothing keeping him from counting, so sure, I'll say 'Yes' to him.
Now, I'll havey write-ups within the hour likely, but first.... here's another MCU villain with an unapproved entry who....I GUESS could count? From Daredevil (2015)....
- Wilson Fisk already has shades of this in Season 1, but he solidifies it in Season 2 where he uses Frank Castle as a means to an end to gain power in prison, as well as setting him free so he can kill as many criminals in the city as possible so he can take over easily once he is out. He also shows Matt his power by beating him up in the interrogation room without any of the personnel stepping in.
Now, Fisk is an AMAZING villain, and easily arguable as the best villain in the MCU, easily hanging with Thanos, Kilgrave, Ward, etc. Hell, one can pretty handily argue that Fisk hangs with Ledger's Joker.
Whether he's an MB? I.... don't know. He's a pretty smart dude, and is VERY close to the trope in Season 2, but I dunno....Fisk is VERY emotional and almost petulantly childish, with his Establishing Character Moment being the fact that he takes a man's head off with a car door....for interrupting a DINNER DATE.
Fisk gets pissed rather easily, and though this is down played in Season 2, he still flies into a rage when Matt threatens his lover Vanessa and assaults the man. Though this wasn't a BAD move on Fisk's part, it could be seen as rather....childish.
If we want, I can do an EP for him, but does anyone have any immediate thoughts?
edited 15th May '18 9:36:15 AM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

There was an agreement a while ago when clearing the comics pages that Helmut Zemo could qualify. We just need an effort post.
Dooku's a cut. He's a puppet for Palpatine.
How's that look as a write-up for the Chairman? It wound up a bit longer than Le Creuset's just because it was a little harder to boil down his actions to a short form.
edited 15th May '18 9:44:50 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar