During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Based off the EP, the argunent for Kisame counting is his loyalty to his comrades? I mean hiw does that work? I always thought an MB had to do a fair amount of scheming and plotting to meet the standard?
The Unknown Unknown
Kisame's Thanatos Gambit likely does enough for someone like him. The fact it works despite Naruto being a long line of Gambit Pileups helps a little too.
Edited by erazor0707 on Nov 20th 2018 at 1:10:43 AM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Lord of Hell
What ![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
said. It wasn't only due to being loyal, it was for putting his own soul into his sword and infiltrating the Cloud village, gaining enemy intel, and even when defeated, still succesfully gives said intel to his allies. Luring his own master to his death helps as well.
Hmmm, now that I think about it that waa pretty brilliant. I will give a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
. I guess this is one of those rare cases where a mere minion manages to retain their 'Magnifience' in a series where the main villains are constantly one-upping each other in schemes.
It's really Kisame's conviction that does for it, plus his general charm and demeanor. What seals it for me? Kisame doesn't ahve to be manipulated. Obito is honest with him and he works to that goal because he believes in it.
The Unknown Unknown
>Lighty with a profile pic
...
(checks outside for a natural disaster)
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
And a quote, goddamn! Better go dump all my investments in lottery tickets!
Kisame. Honestly, if Tobi actually was Madara instead of Obito and was not manipulated by anybody, then he probably could have counted as an MB.
GLaDOS will come tomorrow. Hopefully.
A 2B icon? A fellow of taste, I can tell!
Alright, I haven't done one of these in a while, but trust me, this one's a banger.
What's the work?
Fatal Fury was one of SNK's flagship fighting game franchises, before it was assimilated into The King of Fighters, alongside sister titles like Art of Fighting. In the non-descript city of Southtown, a young Terry Bogard watched his father slain before his eyes by notorious crime boss Geese Howard, and vowed to take vengeance. Together with his brother Andy and their friend Joe Higashi, they trained for like 10 years and entered Geese's King of Fighters tournament to take him down.
Who is Geeeeese Howard?
Abandoned by his father Rudolph Krauser Von Stroheim at a young age, Geese and his mother Maria lived in poor conditions, and he forced himself to work jobs around Southtown to provide for them both. Sadly, Maria passed from illness and starvation. Instead of letting sorrow get the better of him, Geese tried and failed to kill his father, whereupon he learned that power is the good shit. To this end, he practiced Japanese martial arts at the school of Hakkyokuseiken note , clearly growing appreciation for Japanese culture in the process, and developed connections within the Southtown mafia through both bribery and badassery. When his master Tung Fu Rue saw the darkness in Geese's heart, he chose to pass on the ancient secrets of the school to his pupil Jeff Bogard, enraging Geese.
Leaving the school in a huff, Geese became the police commissioner of Southtown and the head honcho of the city's seedy criminal underbelly, amassing a wealth of clout among Southtown's politicians and law enforcement. In doing this, he not only overthrew reigning crime king Mr. Big, but enlisted him to kidnap Yuri Sakazaki in the process during the events of Art of Fighting 2; he did this to force Yuri's father, Takuma, into working for him. When Takuma's son Ryo stops Geese's plans through the power of whoopass, Geese steps down as chief of police to be a full-time crime lord, seizes revenge by killing Jeff himself, and starts the King of Fighters tournament series to find worthy henchmen, appointing his right-hand man Billy Kane as his champion.
10 years later, Terry defeats Geese at his own tournament, sending him plummeting to his apparent death from the top of Geese Tower. However, Geese survived, if having lost the power he had in Southtown. Upon recovering, Geese learns of sacred Chinese scrolls that grant immense power to those who read them, and sought to obtain them to regain control of Southtown. While he succeeds, he is ultimately defeated by Terry, once again hanging perilously from Geese Tower. Terry offers his hand to save him, but Geese chooses to let go and fall to his death as one final "fuck you" to Terry, laughing all the way down.
Apparently, there's a timeline split that leads into The King of Fighters, where it turns out Geese survived the fall, and continues to join the King of Fighters tournament both to regain power and to keep tabs on anything that could threaten or help him. Once in a while, he tries evening the score with Terry, either sending Billy to do the deed or getting involved himself.
Is he Smart?
Geese is perpetually one step ahead of everybody, and if he ever suffers a setback he always overcomes it in some capacity. So persistent and clever is he that his various character endings in The King of Fighters always show him plotting something, and he is only ever overcome by besting him in combat - which is never an easy feat.
Is he a Bastard?
Pretty sure I said the word "crime" like 5 times up there, but if it wasn't clear, Geese is a meanybutt. He's killed, he's kidnapped, and he's threatened, but perhaps his biggest feat of dickery is his treatment of his family. He remained distant from his wife Marie (in both the physical and emotional sense), as she represented a weakness on Geese's part that could be exploited by his enemies, and he ignored his son Rock's pleas to save her when she fell ill, resulting in her death (it's implied that she understood why they needed to stay separated, which makes this a little less awful). Rock would develop a total loathing of Geese and a desire not to become anything like his father - not that Geese cares.
Is he Charming?
Yuuup. Geese is an asshole but he has his own personal code of honor in combat (except when fighting Jeff), treats his subordinates well, and is a very, very close friend to Billy, to the point where Billy follows him simply because he thinks Geese truly deserves to rule Southtown. He's unrelentingly confident both in-battle and out, but it's not impossible to earn his respect, or even sympathy. He's got a tragic backstory, sincere taste in Japanese culture, and a badass death scene. Even the hilariously Engrish-y way he talks ("YOU AH NOT WURTH MAH DISCUUUUSS") makes him likable in a goofy way. He's too damn hard to hate.
Verdict?
Geese is one of the best fighting game baddies ever, and I say that the answer is PREDICTABO - keep, keep, KEEP.
Edited by DocSharp on Nov 20th 2018 at 3:05:59 AM
Remember to give transgender folks hugs. They deal with too much shit.
Goku Black
geese
Also yeah if it weren't for the tobi is obito reveal. I feel he would have ended up keeping as an MB as well.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
EASY, easy for Goose Howard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q81ptFSA4mk
I love Geese.
He's so cool.
And cool.
And handsome.
I think I figured he might count eventually, but I forgot because I realised I wouldn't be able to EP him due to lack of familiarity.
EDIT: Speaking of fight game MB's, I just reserved Zasalamel of Soul Calibur fame. Anything to let me put off Sephiroth, as I'm sure you know. Might be a while though. I need to catch up on the lore, but I feel he may easily fit unless I find out he eats babies or something.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Nov 20th 2018 at 12:51:26 PM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Wait, you don't want EP Sephirot but you are going to do it anyway or what?
Watch me destroying my country
No issue with Geese. Now, with Kisame done...let's talk Gargoyles and one of my favorite villains of the show...
Who is Thailog?
Goliath spelled backwards and with good reason. Thailog is a clone of Goliath, created using his DNA as well as that of MB extraordinaire Xanatos...as a bit of fun background, one episode with the villain Macbeth? Goliaht, voiced by the inimitable Keith David, had a moment where he gives one HELL of an Evil Laugh...Greg Weisman loved it so much he wanted to, eventually, find a villain for David to voice...and so was born Thailog.
In his first episode, Thailog decides to get rich and make out of things quickly...in essence? He sets up a conflict between Goliath and Xanatos, lures them both to his location, gets the better of both of them and locks them up as he takes a ton of money to get a start in the world. Admitting that he did intend to split it with Goliath at first, Goliath's....cold reaction towards first seeing him (IE: "evil abomination, Xanatos steals my souls!") ...did not endear Goliath to him overmuch. "So I've just decided to hate you, too." Things go wrong and Goliath and team slip the bonds, but despite Goliath begging Thailog to come with them, Thailog refues to leave without his money and rushes into the fire to retrieve it where he seemingly perishes.
....Except Xanatos realizes this would be exactly what he would have done. Thailog engineered it and set up a contingency for his escape....as Xanatos's assistance puts it...you now have a creature out there with a huge fortune. It's strong as Goliath...and smarter than Xanatos. "Owen...I think I've created a monster." Thailog slowly builds up a network himself, before seducing with and becoming the lover of Goliath's crazy ex-wife Demona where he forms a scheme to have her, in her human guise, seduce her archfoe Macbeth and marry him to take his fortune...before Thailog and Demona arrange for a little accident publicly and lock Macbeth away to take control of his fortune and company....however, what Thailog isn't telling Demona? He has no intention of sharing and is engineering the conflict so Macbeth and Demona kill each other, with the two bound by an ancient spell...only they can kill one another and if one dies, both dies. Goliath and team do manage to halt it and save Macbeth, but Demona flees with Thailog, none the wiser.
Seeking to create his own clan, Thailog engineers Demona to get close to her biological daughter with Goliath Angela, luring the Manhattan Clan into a trap so he can harvest their DNA, create clones and do away with the originals...it nearly goes off without a hitch. Demona, however, gets cold feet on betraying Angela and Thailog reveals he's already created a replacement for her named Delilah....Demona, to save Angela, attacks Thailog, and the battle ends with both plunging into an inferno.
As the canon comic reveals, Thailog survives, tricks the Manhattan Clan again and even nearly mortally wounds Goliath to harvest his DNA. Fleeing, Thailog is revealed to have joined the Illuminati and is making his way up in the ranks while forming a dark bond with the storyteller Shari...unfortunately, this is where we leave the story.
What shows he's an MB?
Xanatos describes him as a chip off the old block and this is...accurate. Thailog inherits Xanatos's charm and suave nature, being nearly unflappable. The one time he breaks down in his debut episode? It's entirely acting. thailog is constantly forming new, manipulative plans and playing everyone around him like fiddles. It's genuinely impressive how well he does, even in Gargoyles. The only times his plans fail are from outside interference, or tiny variables changing at the last moment, like Demona not being quite as heartless as Thailog realized.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Thailog is...kind of a dick. He is, however, devoid of any truly revolting crimes. But he is a consummate sociopath in most everything, who expresses no issues over trying to murder his 'father.' He uses people and discards them as needed, but as said before...compared to more sadistic and monstrous figures in Gargoyles, Thailog doesn't really come off as revolting (next to, say, Jackal who tries to exterminate all life), or as petty as Oberon, the Fay King...he's a fine successor to his 'father' Xanatos here, albeit without Xanatos's clearer redeeming qualities...and he is at the least fascinated by Shari and her stories, constantly wanting to hear more there, so he has at least one functional relationship
Conclusion?
Oh, Thailog is a clear yes.
Goku Black
Thailog
Isnt he the only Villain to ever Out Gambit Xanatos himself from what Ive heard. Which is impressive.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to both
Thailog.
Fear not, I do want to EP Sephy.
But he will be my most ambitious project - for one thing I got a LOT of misconceptions to address. But for now, we shall drop him.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Oh btw... I'm wondering about something. Has some versions of Catwoman been discussed on this thread especially with the Batman Returns version? I almost think that she can fit the trope.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
to Howard and Thailog, the latter being another great crossover of a MB and a CM.
Batman Returns Catwoman? Go ahead, but I think she may be too unstable.
Man, it still feels so weird putting Kisame, such a minor villain up when all the big players don't count.
Goku Black
So Sonic Chronicles has this:
- Magnificent Bastard: Dr. Eggman got a serious upgrade from his usual self into this. He admits he didn't know if Sonic and the others would come back but hoped they would so he could show off.
Anyne famlair with this eggman and whether he could count
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
kisame
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."