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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#52976: Jul 16th 2021 at 6:57:53 AM

Somebody else read the poems or seen Troy recently—haven't seen the movie in a while myself admittedly? From what I remember of Troy, his actions there are pretty similar to what he does in The Iliad.

For the Homer poems, I've only read part of The Odyssey myself.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 16th 2021 at 6:58:43 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#52977: Jul 16th 2021 at 7:00:45 AM

[up] Troy is a pretty loose hollywood adaptation of the Illiad iirc. I'd say it'd be worth proposing that Ulysses/Odysseus seperately

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#52978: Jul 16th 2021 at 7:07:37 AM

I'd definitely be up for an Odysseus EP. As Library says Troy is a loose hollywood adaptation, so yes I could see him counting there and the original poems. Love that quote Rav!

Edited by jjjj2 on Jul 16th 2021 at 10:07:50 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#52979: Jul 16th 2021 at 7:10:30 AM

Hmmm...I could check the poem and give a shot soon

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#52980: Jul 16th 2021 at 7:27:40 AM

I might check out Troy again sometime to do both Achilles and Odysseus. That'll make up for Agamemnon not counting for CM. Someone else wants to first though, then by all means.

From what I gather, the 1997 miniseries adaptation of The Odyssey is pretty loyal to the poem though, so that version—as played by Armand Assante—probably would count by extension then.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 16th 2021 at 7:29:37 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#52981: Jul 16th 2021 at 8:30:46 AM

[tup] Conan

What's the work?

Coonskin is a 1974 animated/live action movie by Ralph Bakshi, and in my opinion, it’s his best film. A massive satire of Song of the South, Blacksploitation movies, and how Black people are portrayed in Hollywood, the movie was subject to mass protests at the time led by Al Sharpton, who didn’t even see the movie.

The plot involves two prisoners, Pappy and Randy, (played by Scatman Crothers and a pre-Miami Vice Phillip Michael Thomas) are escaping prison, and are waiting for Sampson (played by Barry White) and Preacherman to pick them up. Pappy decides to tell Randy a series of connected vignettes to pass the time.

The stories involve Brother Rabbit and his friends Brother Bear and Preacher Fox, who attempt to take over the Harlem crime racket. The problem is that corrupt cops and the racist mafia stand in their way. But it's nothing the gang can't handle.

Who is He?

“As smart as you are, he was. And as mean as you is, he is.”

Brother Rabbit (voiced by Phillip Michael Thomas) is the leader of the bunch, a rabbit in a nice suit ready to take over Harlem from all those who tainted it.

What does he do?

After arriving in Harlem with his pals, the gang arrive at a sermon from Simple Savior, an obese Black man who claims to be heralding a Black revolution, but is actually pocketing the money from his followers with the help of his white friends. Rabbits takes most of the money during the pledging, while distracting Savior’s armed goons by getting the followers to question the logic behind the supposed revolution.

With the money acquired, Rabbit buys a night club, with drinks on the house. Getting into a bar fight after trying to protect a prostitute that leads to him being taken to Savior’s office to be punished, Rabbit begs and pleads not to be thrown out his window, as he can’t survive outside alone on the streets. He’s promptly thrown out of the window and lands in a garbage can… which was Rabbit’s plan all along, as he can make an escape. Reuniting with Bear, the two gun down Savior before he could even leave his office. At Savior’s funeral, Rabbit makes a deal with Savior’s men: should he take out the cop Madigan and the Godfather, Harlem’s drug rackets will be his to control, and the goons will leave him alone. They agree, and a partnership forms.

So Rabbit sets out to take down the extremely racist and homophobic cop Madigan, who controls a part of the city. Taking time to wipe out any potential competition in the form of rival heroine pushers, Rabbit lures Madigan and his partners to his night club, where he has him drugged, his face painted black, and put into a dress to break his mind. With Madigan coming to and finding his partners killed, he goes on a violent rampage, which gets him messily gunned down by some cops.

As for the Godfather and his sons? Well, through a series of events, the Godfather gets Fox to make Bear the mob’s boxer as a way to lure in Rabbit and gang up on him. Turns out, this entire thing was planned by Rabbit and Fox. For you see, when the mob family collectively kill him, they find that it’s not Rabbit who they’re stabbing.

“He was a tar rabbit, baby!”

Through a surreal sequence, the family are all trapped and entangled in tar. To further complete the Song of the South parallels, Rabbit hops by and gleefully tells the mob that he’ll let them go if they say “Hello” to him within 2 seconds. Rabbit produces a match and lights a fuse connected to a bunch of explosives, wiping out the entire family in one fell swoop. While playfully admitting to Bear that he and Fox might’ve forgotten to inform him of their plan, the three laugh triumphantly, as the city's crime racket is now there’s to control.

Is he charming? Intelligent? Able to think on his feet?

Rabbit is a smooth criminal, able to plan ahead and outwit his opponents while looking cool doing so. He’s able to take advantage of Madigan’s hatred for gays and Blacks by fucking with his mind and getting him killed, while manipulating the mob into getting into one place and wiping them out as well. All of which he does without breaking a sweat.

Is he a bastard? Too much of one?

Rabbit is essentially a criminal, wanting to take charge over Harlem’s crime rackets pretty much because he sees good money and fun involved, while willing to manipulate and endanger his friends in his plan to stop the Godfather. He’s also a cold murderer who ultimately cares about him and his friends over anybody else.

But that said, he genuinely wants to help out Harlem, feeling that it’s been corrupted by people like Madigan and the Godfather. Plus, he cares for his late parents, as seen in his introduction when he’s talking peacefully to their tombstones.

The competition?

Of course Madigan and the Godfather are portrayed as racist scum outwitted by Rabbit, and Savior's just a greedy hypocrite, so they really don’t even come close to making the cut.

As for Rabbit's friends? Bear doesn't keep, as he ends up being a pawn in Rabbit and Fox's plan. Fox, maybe keeps, though at one point he owns a whorehouse (even if he's a playfully benevolent owner), so I don't know if that's an automatic disqualifier. If you guys feel he deserves an EP, I'll give him one.

Verdict?

Easy keep I feel

Edited by therealjackieboy on Jul 16th 2021 at 9:10:35 AM

It's Spooky Month!
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#52982: Jul 16th 2021 at 8:48:34 AM

Yeah to Conan and Brother Rabbit.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#52984: Jul 16th 2021 at 9:15:30 AM

[tup]Brother Rabbit.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#52985: Jul 16th 2021 at 9:37:55 AM

Sure there to Brother Rabbit.

Someone was wondering about Arnold's Conan? I wonder if he could count - it has been a long time since I've seen the film and I've never seen its sequel. He is a little more crass than his literary counterpart, but I can imagine character development could help there. But I am not the one to evaluate him.

It'd be fun to get another Arnie role though.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#52986: Jul 16th 2021 at 9:47:36 AM

Hmm I've been thinking what do people think of this quote, I don't have much cunning, but I do think it showcases raw charisma:

Cheese: First of all we got permission to grind in these here towers, second of all—
(moves to attack Brother Mouzone, but Mouzone extremely quickly draws his sidearm and shoots him)
Brother Mouzone: Pellets in plastic. Rat shot. What you need be concerned about is what's seated in the chamber now: a copper-jacketed, hollow-point, 120-grain hot street load of my own creation. So you need to think for a just a moment and ask yourself: "What do I have to do before this man raise up his gun again?"
Cheese: Let's go...
Brother Mouzone: Good day to you sir.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jul 16th 2021 at 12:48:03 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#52987: Jul 16th 2021 at 10:09:08 AM

Yes to Rabbit and as I told Star over PM I give anyone who wants Odysseus complete and total approval to do him, I wasn't calling dibs by any means. Glad I brought him up if it means he'll get another look-over.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#52989: Jul 16th 2021 at 10:14:23 AM

And as I discussed with Lighty, I just had to read it for a class so I’m happy to take it - I’m gonna jump in the drafts first, then fire up an EP

Yes to Rabbit, and I'm not sure on the quote

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jul 16th 2021 at 3:54:21 PM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#52992: Jul 16th 2021 at 11:58:55 AM

@Polar I was actually considering Momoa's Conan at some point.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#52994: Jul 16th 2021 at 12:52:33 PM

[tup] to Rabbit. Need to think on the Mouzoune quote.

Looperreallyreallyrocks Since: Jun, 2018
#52995: Jul 16th 2021 at 12:57:54 PM

Late [tup] to the F&F candidates.

Could Brian O'Conner have a shot too? He shares several of Dom's questionable acts (helping him break the law, orchestrate heists, etc.), and is equally witty and Badass, unless there's something I missed.

[down][down] Alright, if there's enough interest, I'll EP him soon (unless someone else beats me to it). Honestly, considering his lone appearance in 2F2F, I don't think overreliance on Dom should be too much of an issue, but yeah, whether he's enough of a bastard is my bigger concern.

Edited by Looperreallyreallyrocks on Jul 16th 2021 at 8:03:15 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#52996: Jul 16th 2021 at 1:00:00 PM

Alright, everything in the drafts is done, as well as on the Metal Gear page - should be good to start moving!

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#52997: Jul 16th 2021 at 1:00:39 PM

[up][up]Brian's far more tame in any questionable actions and probably follows Dom's lead too much. I'd hear him out though.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 16th 2021 at 1:00:53 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#52998: Jul 16th 2021 at 1:04:04 PM

Brian is the flat out moral center for a lot of the franchise and doesn't do much actual planning.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#52999: Jul 16th 2021 at 1:06:30 PM

Who was the brains behind breaking Dom out at the end of the fourth one again? Mia? Brian and Mia probably planned it together actually.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 16th 2021 at 1:07:04 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#53000: Jul 16th 2021 at 1:08:09 PM

It's a little hard to say, because they never explain it. So both together is all we can say as that is the most we are given.

I am not saying no, but that it would be a hard sell.

Edited by Bullman on Jul 16th 2021 at 3:14:22 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

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