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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#52526: Jul 10th 2021 at 2:12:39 PM

Like mother, like daughter. Yes to Max and Alana.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#52528: Jul 10th 2021 at 2:21:17 PM

@43 Love your response. Fallout borrows a lot of the same beats from the other films and does its own thing. Both to great effect.

@Beast What about Max?

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#52529: Jul 10th 2021 at 2:25:14 PM

Reading up, [tup] Max.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#52530: Jul 10th 2021 at 2:45:28 PM

'Yes' to Preston, Han, Dom the Family Man, and both MI gals

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#52531: Jul 10th 2021 at 2:51:33 PM

Yes to Han, Dom, Max and the White Widow

Edited by papyru30 on Jul 10th 2021 at 3:51:54 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#52532: Jul 10th 2021 at 2:54:33 PM

[tup]mission impossible mother and daughter.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#52533: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:06:02 PM

Well... if no one minds.

So here's my first SCP candidate for this thread.

For those who don't know the SCP Foundation started out as a Creepypasta from 4Chan but grew in popularity to the point of becoming a franchise in on itself. The site focuses on the fictional organization, as it documents, studies, contains and tracks down anomalous objects and entities. Despite having no set in stone canon, the site also host short stories used to expand the lore, which is too long and elaborate to explain here.

Anyways, this EP focuses on a haunted CD classified SCP-2137 - specifically the spirit that haunts it; Tupac Shakur.

Who is he ? What does he do ?

Containing the spiritual manifestation rap artist, song writer and activist, Tupac Shakur, SCP-2137 itself is a copy of his 1995 album CD "Me Against the World". Where the song "Heavy in the Game" would usually be played, a new song, preformed by the ghostly voice of Tupac would take it's place. Sometimes Tupac's voice would be accompanied by a guest singer from his contemporaries such as Snoop Dog, and modern artists such as Eminem, Katy Perry, and Kayne West (none of these artists will have any recollection of recording these songs). Other times he would Collab with past singer's such as Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra or Diana Ross.

Specifically these songs would cover an unsolved murder or cold case of the like; they would call out the guilty party by name, provide evidence of their guilt, and irrefutable evidence to exonerate anyone who commits vigilante justice against them. SCP-2137 got the Foundations attention a year after Tupac's murder; a young man named Avon Lincoln was arrested for the murder of a corrupt district attorney Michael Ferris. Lincoln would claim that Tupac spoke to him from the grave revealing that Ferris was a Serial Killer who would have gotten away with it; when the Foundation looked into this incident, SCP-2137 was used to exonerate Lincoln and expose Ferris.

When the Foundation got a hold of the album, they quickly picked up on Shakur's pattern and learned it was nigh impossible to contain his broadcasts. Despite initial attempts to suppress his voice, it was found he had no ranged limit, digital, wireless and broadcast media. As such the most they can do was observe him. Each new song would reveal to the Foundation ongoing cold cases and unsolved murders; from such they'd either report their findings to police networks or in more extreme cases, create a task force to look into these cases themselves. As a result hundreds of murderers where arrested or killed, including terror cells and the capture of a few SCP's. Eventually, the Foundation found SCP-2137 impractical to use, since Tupac's spirit was basically controling the circumstances of it's containment, and risked exposing the Foundation's existence, so they had the album locked away. Tupac would even play messages directed at the Foundation.

At some point in the 2010's, Tupac did something that made the Foundation panic - he released a new album; XK Scenario, featuring a picture of a much older Tupac Flipping the Bird while in D-Class garb. The songs on this album revealed in depth information on the Foundation, their methods the dangerous SCP's in containment, and even addressing the O5 council by their first names. While the Foundation scrambled to take the album down, complete erasure proved too difficult with thousands already viewing it's content.

If that wasn't enough, Tupac wrote another message to the Foundation.

Help me find my killers, and I'll find yours/Tryin’ not the play the CD, you’re startin’ a war/You don’t really wanna see me in flesh/I wouldn’t hesitate to put you little nerds to rest/So feel my power/What if i told you that ████ ████ planned it all/What if the world knew that ███ ████ █ ███ bout to fall?/Don’t try to play me cus you need me inside/It was the reason ██████ ████████ had died/██████ ████████ I would never let her/=████████ █████ was set up[=/████████ self████ to keep his head up/█████ █████ 19, and █████ ███/Is not what it seems/I may be rare and I can’t be touched/And if you think about a plan imma fuck shit up/You try to hide but I see it all/And now I’m coming for your head like a tylenol/You don’t wanna fall/Dressed in black like you can’t be seen/I fight alone i don’t need no team/So do your job cus I’m giving you tips/ And put that whole CD in the mix, biatch.

Eventually, the Foundation decided to resume their initial work with Tupac, placating his spirit, with his final direct message to them being on the friendly side.

I guess it took time for it to sink in/I’m just glad you understood what I was thinkin’/I just knew you’d come around so you see it now/Ain’t no need to get upset or even throw down/You know I got the crown/I see it’s hard to get some sleep at night/You got a head full of greys and your skin ain’t tight/So lets be real ain't no need to fight it/There’s a grander design I bet your gonna like it/It’s black and white so don’t get caught up in the deep thoughts/You got my music on the side with a greater force

Some time after the Foundation began collaborating with the spirit, Dr. Gwen Prestine was put in charge of researching where Tupac's spirit came from and why he's doing what he's doing. In her notes, she describes how since the Foundation got their hands on Tupac's spirit, he has saved so many lives, prevented multiple murders, tragedies and even helped capture numerous dangerous SCP's. The exact number is estimated to be in the forty thousands. In her research, Prestine also uncovered an obscure interview with Tupac; it was initially covered up as his crew thought Tupac was talking nonsense under the influence of drugs, but Prestine's research concludes that the interview was a glimpse into Tupac's true nature.

Tupac: "People ask me where I get my inspiration from. They say how do you go so hard, put in that much work. But what they don’t understand is: This is me taking a break. This is me on vacation. I think some people would say that was irresponsible, to just sit back and be human for a while, be an artist, experience that. I can’t be chasing the king all the time. I feel like I’ve been doing that forever, to protect you, all of you. He’s not so big. And you’re not so small. But he’s gotta trick you like it doesn’t matter because that’s the only way he can keep it looking like he’s the man, like he’s some big bad evil…motherfucker. You don’t see that when I die, I’ll live on. My death is my destiny, and then I become something else…what I was before. The voice will still shout, and it’ll shout justice, in poetry, and art, and music! I got you. I got you, humanity. When I eventually go toe to toe and brawl with this fool, he’s gonna gather up his little red dress and go home crying like a bitch, and he knows it. Evil knows its days are numbered. So the king’s still running. The chase isn’t over. Prepare. Prepare. Prepare.”

What makes him Magnificent ?

The article portrays his spirit as a near omniscient and benevolent entity, out to protect people and fight injustice where he finds it. He exposes the corrupt and murderers who get away through his lyrics; he provides detailed strategies and evidence to not only expose the guilty, but exonerate the innocent. In his "captivity", Tupac's spirit is able to control how things are run, and essentially bully the Foundation into using it's resources to help people and bring down murderers. He's even noted to have helped capture dangerous SCP's during his stay.

When the Foundation tried to suppress him at the risk of exposure, Tupac's spirit shows his range is beyond their control and he tries to expose them anyways. The Foundation has to scramble to cover his "album" up, and decide it's just best to play ball with the guy. On top of that, the articles final notes imply that Tupac in the SCP "verse" is in fact an angel in human form (or some sort of other worldly being), and that his mortal life was a "vacation". The cherry on top is that his interview implies that he actively combatting and chasing the Scarlet King himself, and that when he dies, he'd just go back to doing everything he did before, while affirming his love and protectiveness of humanity. He may even be an incarnation of The Gate Guardian if the final Wham Line is any indication.

Is he a bastard ?

Not too much by the SCP Foundation's standards.

The worst he does is encourage and endorse vigilante justice against those who can get away with murder; he gets one of his listeners to kill a corrupt District Attorney, and provides evidence to get his listener exonerated. In his captivity, he uses his power and influence to pretty much bully the Foundation into doing his work as proxies, and when they try to suppress him, he's not above threatening and intimating the Foundation itself.

In fact, it makes good on it's threats by releasing an album that damn near exposes the Foundation (that they still haven't completely covered up). In that album, he's noted to not just expose the Foundation, but their dirty deeds and secrets. He also all but doxes the O5 Council. It was enough to scare the Foundation to working with him again.

Edited by Beast on Jul 10th 2021 at 3:22:58 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#52534: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:17:34 PM

If we're willing to feel this aligns with his own claims he never committed rape despite being found guilty of it in a contentious case I'm fine with it. I just need it to be clear that him going up is very much contingent on taking a particular interpretation of the man's life given the other would very much disqualify him. Given the tone it's written with it's slack I'm willing to cut personally but I do think we should talk it over and agree on how we'd like to take this one.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#52535: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:20:36 PM

This is the first I heard of the case, so that caught me off guard (the most I knew of Tupac was of his rep in activism and music).

But all in all it seems like it's a fictional representation of him, if a little white washed. I guess I probably should have run it by someone in the PM's.

Edited by Beast on Jul 10th 2021 at 3:32:07 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#52536: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:24:42 PM

No worries mate, you asked and I missed it—being a fan of his music I just happen to have read up on it—so it's partially my fault. Like I said it was quite a controversial case with his supporters ardently refusing to hear anything that could demean him as he launched himself to hero status with his music and activism and the fact that his detractors were frequently motivated by disdain for him and racism. It's a situation you'll get a thousand different interpretations on asking a thousand people and that's why I think he remains worthy of talking about.

For reference point we did allow up Jump Force's version of Light Yagami when the original exists on a different planet from this trope. I think it comes down to how much you can separate this version of him from the real life version and a very messy situation. Due to the IRL nature I'm aware the Light comparison isn't a perfect one but it's about as close as I can think of one or like how on the flip side we agreed we'd never take a fanfic version of Tywin Lannister thanks to the gang rape he ordered on a teenaged prostitute.

Edited by 43110 on Jul 10th 2021 at 6:27:53 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#52537: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:29:37 PM

Oh sorry 43 and Beast. Yeah I don't know how to handle that either... My feeling is that... Oh man this is hard...

[tup]Dom, Max.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jul 10th 2021 at 6:34:19 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#52538: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:33:46 PM

Earnestly though I feel these are the truly important EPs to discuss. There's a reasonable argument to make in both camps and they really help us establish the limits of our criteria. I thank you for this Beast, since regardless of outcome it'll sure as hell give us ample discussion to determine a precedent!

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#52539: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:34:18 PM

Yes to Dom, Max, and Alana. I’ll go over Ghost Tupac when I get home from work.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#52540: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:35:12 PM

I'm not super familiar with the Tywin Lannister fanfic stuff so what exactly happened?

I will be abstaining though as I know nothing about Tupac other than his murder.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jul 10th 2021 at 3:35:44 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#52541: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:36:30 PM

Tywin has his son's wife gangraped. It's as gross as it sounds. We generally assume, even if they don't mention it, that that's canon to fanfics. Scratch that, 43 already mentioned that...

Edited by jjjj2 on Jul 10th 2021 at 6:37:18 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#52542: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:37:07 PM

Wasn't a proposal. It was a contrast Star used when we were discussing Jump Force's version of Light as a character who could not be separated from his atrocities, unlike Light who can be rewritten without his smugness, sadism or sexism.

Edited by 43110 on Jul 10th 2021 at 6:38:35 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#52543: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:38:40 PM

Oh misunderstood that a bit, though I assume that wouldn't apply to settings that overhaul the setting kind of like with CM and Adaptational Villainy/Ron the Death Eater.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jul 10th 2021 at 3:38:59 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#52544: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:38:51 PM

Abstain on Tupac

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#52545: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:44:25 PM

I think the fact we've got the film version of Dudley up since the writers did away with his prejudice and heavily altered the story answers that.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#52546: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:45:45 PM

[tup]White Widow.

Reading the EP, even putting aside the whole real life rape business, is he enough of a bastard in story? He seems like a low grade punisher who's truly punishing the guilty. Or are we thinking his targets aren't all beyond the Moral Event Horizon, and that makes him enough of one? Maybe even blackmailing the SCP is scene as to big a risk? Am I reading that right?

Edited by jjjj2 on Jul 10th 2021 at 7:08:42 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#52547: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:48:48 PM

I am still in favor of the mentality that we should just crimes based on the reason for killing rather than who, but if he is killing criminals for what he feels is justice that may be a problem.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#52548: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:51:11 PM

As far s the real life case goes, the article was written out pretty clear hero-worship for the man. And seeing the unlikelyhood, that the real Tupac is an otherwordly entity beefing with the Scarlet King, it does feel a little easier to separate this guy from the real deal.

And to answer the question, the most bastardom he does within this story is punish truly guilty people, encourage vigilante killings and blackmailing the Foundation. As said, this article is really going for a heroic interpretation of the guy, while also making him out to be a tough guy who gets the Foundation to panic.

[down] I realized that right as I posted.

Edited by Beast on Jul 10th 2021 at 3:57:48 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#52549: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:52:12 PM

I really wouldn't site Max Landis who has his own rape accusations as well...

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#52550: Jul 10th 2021 at 3:59:55 PM

Accusations aside, is he too powerful? From what I'm reading, the guy seems like an unstoppable force if he can fight the friggin Scarlet King and effortlessly blackmail the Foundation.

Either way, I'll abstain for reasons that should be obvious by now.

[tup] to the F&F candidates btw.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jul 10th 2021 at 4:01:54 AM


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