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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#50151: Jun 17th 2021 at 6:53:02 PM

Yes to the spy, and:

  • Black Clover: Rhya the Disloyal is the most powerful of the Third Eye, the elite force of the Eye of the Midnight Sun. One of the victims of the genocide of the elves from centuries ago, Rhya was summoned back by the elf Patoli pretending to be their former leader Licht. The most affable and charming of the group, Rhya is also their chief infiltrator, utilizing his Imitation Magic to impersonate William Vangeance in the Clover Kingdom while Patoli is borrowing Vangeance's body. Helping to manipulate the human members of the group to their eventual sacrifice and the revival of the elves, Rhya shows his strategic skill in fighting by ensuring he copies powerful Grimoires to use at opportune moments. After the reveal of the demon Zagred, Rhya is among the first to leap to the side of the humans in an effort to save the world.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#50152: Jun 17th 2021 at 7:08:44 PM

Down for the Spy expansion. I'm probably gonna leave what's on drafts just so poor Star isn't pressed to pothole it and I'll just run a big batch next week unless he's got the time. I've moved the stuff that has been potholed.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#50153: Jun 17th 2021 at 7:14:41 PM

Oh hey guys did you call-

Realizes it’s Thursday night

…shit, time got away from me there - I might be able to get some stuff in a bit, but the Appleseed stuff for sure is gonna take a lot of time and might just have to go next week. If someone else who knows the franchise better wants to go for it, have at it

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jun 17th 2021 at 10:17:23 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#50155: Jun 17th 2021 at 7:29:43 PM

Yes to Rhya and the Spy.

I'm gonna do Mordin Solus tomorrow, but go ahead and Wrex and his if he gets approved before I move on to others so as not to get a backlog. As Lighty does his, we can discuss a page and organization as I'm confident we're gonna go past 7.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#50156: Jun 17th 2021 at 7:50:13 PM

Well, I'm just gonna close out the Support trio tonight.

What's the work? We've talked a lot about Team Fortress 2 so far. Short version? Mercenaries, hired to kill each other and end up teaming up against a greater foe.

Who's the Sniper? What does he do? Mick Mundy, or "Mun-dee" is the Australian (actually New Zealander, long story) sniper who serves as the team's assassin. Much like the Spy, he's an expert in his craft, capable of pulling off insane trickshots such as shooting people through other people, as shown in "Meet the Sniper" where he not only shoots a Heavy dead but manages to cause a Demoman to experience Eye Scream at the hands of his own bottle. Casual and relaxed about his work, the Sniper lives by a simple code: "Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet."

Sniper first appears in the comics, having disappeared to his old home. When Miss Pauling and Demoman come to talk to him, Sniper ambushes them, ties them up, and interrogates them about his real parentage, having learned some sad truths about his loving and sadly passed Australian parents. Pauling gives him the answers he wants and talks him down, and while she critiques his grave-digging methods there's clearly a mutual respect between the two. Sniper joins the team to find his parents, and discovers that he's in fact from the sunken land of New Zealand. Sniper insists on going back to save his biological father after they're separated, but both of his biological parents leave despite Sniper's willingness to bond. So, there is one major error the Sniper makes... desperate to see his dad and hoping he's had a change of heart, he rushes out to greet a new submarine, only to simply say "Aw, hell." and be shot twice by the TFC team.

Later, Sniper is revived by the Medic after meeting his truly loving adoptive parents, who say they're proud of his work. Genuinely moved, Sniper returns to the world, confidently stating he's the most dangerous man on the island since he's already passed. Despite having just returned to life, Sniper escapes the room before the Classic Heavy can catch him. After that escape, the Sniper manages to sneak past TFC Sniper, who has eyes that can see through anything, and takes him down with his own rifle, before fondly reminiscing with Spy. Sniper rejoins the team, witnessing Scout's death and showing genuine concern for him, having saved Spy and made his way back to his real family.

Is he magnificent? Charismatic? Intelligent? Thinks on his feet? Mundy? Extraordinary marksman and tracker. He's brilliant to a T, capable of nigh-impossible shots, great stealth, tons of cleverness, and he has a cool head under fire. Dude's cool and relaxed pretty much all the time, and he's a dangerous hitman who only gets more and more badass as the story goes on, being as Crazy-Prepared as you think. He's also genuinely caring for his team and, as a very professional killer, is comparatively sane and rational when it comes to the rest of the team.

He's got some emotional weak points for sure— he wants his father's approval, both the loving adoptive one and his biological one— but he recovers from the errors he makes due to that quick enough, gets his reassurance after temporarily dying, and declares that he's deadly as ever and gets back to work after his literal death without missing a beat. He's indeed just as professional as he seems to be, and a diligent worker at that.

Is he a bastard? He's a professional sniper who seems to enjoy shooting people, believes that people are naturally somewhat violent, and isn't unwilling to threaten his own comrades and allies if he feels it benefits him. That said, when it comes to measuring up to even his own teammates? Sniper's sane and rational. No issue here. He's an assassin doing (and liking) his job, no more and no less.

Competition? Beyond getting outdone in terms of physical force and getting gunned down due to wanting his father to have come back, the Sniper isn't really in much competition with others. TFC Heavy isn't even a problem for him, he takes out TFC Sniper despite him being more enhanced... Sniper's damn good at what he does and peerless in his line of work.

Conclusion? Yes to the Sniper. I'll get my writeups in for the current trio tomorrow. Engineer is next.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#50158: Jun 17th 2021 at 7:54:05 PM

[tup] The Team Fortress 2 candidates, at this point it seems all the classes qualify.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jun 17th 2021 at 7:54:35 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#50159: Jun 17th 2021 at 7:56:44 PM

Lupin 2.0 here for an all star cast eh? Yes to the Sniper.

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#50160: Jun 17th 2021 at 8:03:41 PM

Easy yes to the Snoipa, and I might as well just propose his best line for the quotes page:

"Feelings? Look mate, you know who has a lot of feelings? Blokes who bludgeon their wife to death with a golf trophy. Professionals have standards. Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
The Sniper, Team Fortress 2

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#50161: Jun 17th 2021 at 8:04:10 PM

The entire Support trio keeps, and there's at least one more merc I'm sure will keep.

Loving the quote btw!

Edited by Riley1sCool on Jun 17th 2021 at 8:04:25 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#50162: Jun 17th 2021 at 8:13:24 PM

Piece of piss to Shnipah

It's Spooky Month!
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#50163: Jun 17th 2021 at 8:19:36 PM

[tup]Spy, Sniper.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#50164: Jun 17th 2021 at 8:31:09 PM

Yes to Spy and Sniper

Alright, summer school decided to smack me right in the ass this week so time got away from me, but I've caught myself up and can dive right into the drafts. I'll let you know once I come back out

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#50166: Jun 17th 2021 at 9:33:07 PM

Aaaaaaaaaand it's done - everything is good to move. So sorry for the delay, bro!

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#50167: Jun 17th 2021 at 10:25:21 PM

No worries, thank you so much for doing that dude, got it all in now too! Though if someone wants to double check I'm sure I missed something lmao

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#50168: Jun 18th 2021 at 12:23:00 AM

[tup] Medic, Canderous, Box Assassin (BEWARE!), Rhya, Spy and Sniper

[tdown] Seska

KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#50169: Jun 18th 2021 at 1:42:19 AM

I cut these unapproved entries from The Lion in Winter:

  • Magnificent Bastard: Henry. "I've snapped and plotted all my life. There's no other way to be alive, king, and fifty all at once."
    • Not to mention Philip, Geoffrey, and Eleanor.
      • Richard isn't much of a bastard at the time during this tale, but when he becomes King in Real Life, he definitely qualifies.
      • In a whole family of them, "merely" being inventive and well-educated makes John look rather thick, to his great frustration.

"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?"
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#50170: Jun 18th 2021 at 2:48:02 AM

[tup]sniper

It's apparently a film [up]. If anyone wants to check it out go aheas.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#50171: Jun 18th 2021 at 3:40:07 AM

Yes to the Spy and Sniper. Here's a Nagito quote we could add to the quotes page.

"Mmm...I can't tell you... It'd be easy to leave you on your own, but it just wouldn't be fair if I did that! So how about this? If the traitor comes forward and reveals their identity to me, I'll tell them where I hid the bombs!" -Nagito Komaeda, Danganronpa 2: Goodbye Despair

Edited by Klavice on Jun 18th 2021 at 3:40:58 AM

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#50172: Jun 18th 2021 at 6:04:13 AM

Yeah to ze Spy expansion and the Sniper.

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
SpaceProtagonist (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
#50174: Jun 18th 2021 at 6:34:07 AM

Hey everyone, look what I found in The Ring's YMMV page:

  • Magnificent Bastard: Ryuji, if the heavy implication that he's the mastermind behind Sadako's resurrection plan is to be believed.

By the way, happy early Juneteenth.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#50175: Jun 18th 2021 at 6:36:21 AM

Yes to the TF 2 Guys.


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