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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#49127: Jun 9th 2021 at 12:24:52 PM

[tup]Lucifel.

Hes this games version of lucifer ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#49128: Jun 9th 2021 at 12:25:39 PM

Whoops, shit misread the name, anyways: yeah and I'm guessing he is.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#49129: Jun 9th 2021 at 12:29:20 PM

Yeah, it's when he's an archangel. It's not clear as to if he'll ever become the Devil, though.

Also, this is the second time Jason Isaacs has voiced the Son of the Morning...

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
TiMBer1566 kittykat from Virginia Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
kittykat
#49131: Jun 9th 2021 at 12:46:09 PM

Yes to Lucifel.

Jason Issacs is the only person I know of to play Satan twice in two unrelated works.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#49132: Jun 9th 2021 at 12:47:35 PM

Sure to Luci.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#49133: Jun 9th 2021 at 12:52:36 PM

Yes to Serpico, Grunbeld, and Lucifel.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#49134: Jun 9th 2021 at 1:01:40 PM

[tup] to Serpico, Arcbeast and Lucifel

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#49136: Jun 9th 2021 at 1:56:29 PM

[tup] for Silico (tentative), Gotti, Poon, Serpico, Arcbeast, and Lucifel.

Changing to [tdown] for Kokonoe and Nine.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#49137: Jun 9th 2021 at 2:14:19 PM

Alright, to put in my two cents to the live-action 2014 Lupin the 3rd discussion, here's the other two members of Lupin's motley crew who once again qualify—Fujiko Mine and Daisuke Jigen.

Who are Fujiko/Jigen? What have they done?

Lupin's fellow master thieves, Lupin's "girlfriend" Fujiko and master marskman Jigen reimagined as working for "The Works," a large coalition of thieves going by a strict Honor Among Thieves code. Fujiko opens the movie masterminding the brilliant heist of the Olympic Medal of Zeus, the first Olympic medal ever bestowed, effortlessly keeping ahead of her cohorts Pierre and Jiro. Lupin ends up swiping the medal after Fujiko does the dirty work of retrieving it, only for the movie's original antagonist Michael Lee to take it back by threatening Fujiko...only for Fujiko to sneak it back from Michael, earning her applause from almost every member of The Works and its head Dawson naming her his new successor.

Michael Lee's (misguided) vengeance (not about the medal—a long story that boils down to You Killed My Father) ends up wiping out most of The Works, including Dawson himself. This is where a vengeful Daisuke Jigen comes in, joining in with Lupin and Fujiko as the trio strike out and become a pair of master thieves over the next year, always dodging the police and leaving their marks screaming in indignity. When Lupin hires Goemon to their cause, Jigen and Goemon get in a spat over their...difference in weapon choice and end up at a complete draw with each other.

Jigen very wisely points out Fujiko is not worth trusting and will betray Lupin—which she predictably does, selling Lupin out to the police, cheekily rubbing it in that she knows because of his "chivalrous nature" she'll take her place with the cops and walking off with a grin on her face. Lupin ends up cutting a deal with Inspector Zenigata to take on the smuggler Big Bad, Pramuk, who happens to be where Michael himself is heading.

Circumstances eventually turn to the point where Lupin allies with Michael—Jigen puts a gun to Michael's head for having been responsible for Dawson's death, only to reveal it wasn't even loaded when Lupin shoots it out of his hand. Jigen and Fujiko to aid him in a brilliant heist on The Ark, Pramuk's highly-safeguarded hideout.

Fujiko and Jigen take out waves of bad guys and take out two of the three Co-Dragons in hilarious ways; when his opponent tosses him a gun out of pity, Jigen kicks it back to him and uses his master marksman skills to shoot the trigger of the gun of a fallen mook instead, hitting his opponent straight in the heart. When Fujiko's opponent challenges her to a fistfight, Fujiko smirks and just shoots her.

Are they too much of a bastard?

Nope. Fujiko and Jigen are roughly about as bad as they are in most adaptations (i.e. not as murderous as they were in the original manga); ruthless master thieves, willing to kill and get their hands dirty and usually having to be blackmailed into doing the right thing, but ultimately they do the right thing and they do it with style, flair and without costing them one cent of their skill or reputation as master thieves. This movie's iteration of Jigen even notably walks himself back from crossing the line when he's got an unarmed Michael up at gunpoint (with a despairing Michael urging Jigen to do it anyway).

What's their competition like?

For all the things the 2014 movie gets wrong or has to sacrifice in the transition to live-action, the dynamic between the team is adapted faithfully. Any time Lupin gets the better of Fujiko, she gets him back in a sort of game they play. Jigen doesn't get as much time to scheme, but he's far from just being an accessory; he's still a charismatic badass who gets plenty of time to showcase his cunning and his flashy gun skills.

Conclusion?

I'd say keep 'em for my first Lupins!

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#49138: Jun 9th 2021 at 2:16:39 PM

[tup]fujiko Jigen

Btw does anyone count in the first live action film Strange Psychokinetic Strategy

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#49139: Jun 9th 2021 at 2:17:33 PM

Happy to bring you on board and equally happy yeas for Fujiko ad Jigen. We haven't seen that one yet mir though I've got a good guess of who'll we'll get out of it lol

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#49140: Jun 9th 2021 at 2:18:39 PM

I gotta say, I saw "Fujiko/Jigen" and my first thought was "Oh God, they got combined?" Anyway, happy yes to them!

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#49141: Jun 9th 2021 at 2:36:57 PM

Ah, dang! I was thinking of Lucifel just a couple days ago, but forgot! But yes to him. Nicely done.

Yeah, El Shaddai is a trippy and fun game if you're looking for something weird.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#49142: Jun 9th 2021 at 2:43:44 PM

Yes to Lucifel, Jigen, and Fujiko.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#49143: Jun 9th 2021 at 3:03:17 PM

Bit behind on voting, but here's another EP. Edit: I like the new writeup Georgie. Yes to Poon.

What's the Work?: Narcos is a tv show about south american Narco-trafficker's and the Narcotics cops who work to take them down. The first two seasons look at Pablo Escobars rise and fall and the third season subsequently looks at his main rivals the Cali Cartel. Narcos is a very dark story, but it is entertaining in how it looks at the war on drugs and it's futility. The candidate we will look at today is Jorge Salcedo the Cali Cartels deputy chief of security.

What does he do? In the first episode we see Jorge overlooking a Cartel party. He immediately realizes there's a rat there, and takes him aside explains he knows everything about him and that he has two choices: Stay and die or leave now and never return to Colombia. This establishes several things key to his character: He's extremely observant and he is the Token Good Teammate of the Cartel.

In the next episode David (son of the Miguel, one of the Cali Cartel godfathers), ends up dumping Chlorine in the sewers instead of properly disposing of it. As a result many people are poisoned and several children die. The cartel charge Jorge with fixing this (they are negotiating a surrender and don't want to do it violently). Using the phone network that the Cali Cartel has control of he taps the phone of the man inspecting the incident and discovers his wife is having an affair. He then goes to the hotel room where the it happens and secretly videotapes it. The cartel orders him to proceed with the blackmailing. Somewhat uncomfortable with this he still manages to accomplish it, even when faced with initial resistance from the inspector.

In the next episode the DEA has managed to zero in on the cartels main accountant Pallomari. Racing to his office he tries to get him to hide his American money (It was illegal at that time to have American currency in bulk). Pallomari is very stubborn and as the DEA agents arrive with local Colombian police, he manages to quickly snatch up all the money in wastebasket and when one spare amount is left on the floor he manages to quickly shift it with his foot out of sight. He then hides behind the door of Pallomari and discretely closes the blinds so the DEA agents don't see him.

His next assignment has him tasked with recovering the son of Miguel's new girlfriend, whose father is dead. He convinces the man he's been sent with, Navegante, to let him do the talking. When he gets to the place where the son is being held he immediately has a gun pointed at him by the boys paternal grandmother. He calmly explains his position while Navegante sneaks around. While the womans sons start to take Jorge away to torture him, Navegante holds her up. Jorge immediately punches the men who were escorting him and takes the boy with him. Meanwhile the head Cali godfather Gilberto, has been arrested.

As a result the cartel is now on high alert. Spending the next episode trying to find out what happened, Jorge and and his friend/boss Cordova, eventually determine that the DEA tracked Pallomari in Cordovas car and located Gilberto that way. Deciding that if they tell Miguel this, it's bad news for Cordova, they decide to lie and blame on incompetence of there cop contact and DEA spy planes. However Cordova then tries to flee with his wife, and Jorge is summoned to a house where they drown there cop contact and Brutally execute Cordova and his wife. He is then promoted to chief of security, while David remains in charge of Miguels personal security. Disgusted by this display of brutality Jorge decides to turn informant and contacts two DEA agents.

He tells them in no uncertain terms he'll testify on everything he knows in order for safe passage for him and his family. The DEA tells him they want Miguel instead. David wants his father to crown a Cali dance festival and asks for Jorge's advice on security for the location. Now having Miguel's location, gives the DEA agents a call and tells them to be there. Still not fully trusting him, they only bring themselves and no back. When he later sees them at the party he meets one of them in the bathroom and thanks them for bringing a contingent of men. Confused the agent states they didn't bring any men just the two. Immediately realizing the implications of this, he rushes to Miguel and saves him from almost certain assassination by a rival cartel. Miguel suitably impressed promotes him to total control over all his security. David who already didn't like Jorge, now despises him.

Jorge gives the DEA the new location, and when they tell him the plan to come in from all angles, Jorge tells them that's a terrible plan, the cartel will see them coming a mile off. He then says he'll be the lookout for one of the directions and for the trucks to come in at only that direction. Later that night while trying to get his friend Enrique to go off so he can be the lookout he is called in by Miguel to eat dinner with him. He discretely turns off his radio and then distracts Miguel and his man so he can turn off their radio. When Enrique sees the convoy coming through the Cartel are caught unawares and Miguel is barely saved from capture by Cartel lawyers, although the DEA manages to recover the cartel ledger. His wife who had learned about his informant activities, has gone to her parents, angry that her husband has put their family in danger.

In the next episode Jorge tries to save Enrique's as the cartel believes that since he didn't warn them, he must be a rat. While telling him to stay put he works with David to "determine" enriques location. While scouring a house, he discretely tapes David, who in no uncertain terms states he thinks Jorge is the mole named "natalia" and that he's going to enjoy killing Jorge and his wife. Later they announce to Jorge that they have found Enrique. When Jorge arrives at the location he sees they have tortured Enrique who blames Jorge telling them Jorge had found the DEA agents location but told him not to tell them (which is true). While fighting with Enrique about the accusations he discretely places the DEA pager they gave him on Enrique and when it rings it seals his fate. Suffering tremendous guilt for this, he returns to his wife and cries.

He contacts the DEA tells him they have a mole, and tells them they need to capture Miguel now. They plan the raid of his new residence, while the plan is to lure Miguel out into the open. Meanwhile David finally finds out evidence that Jorge is the mole, and tells his father. His father call Jorge back up and the DEA agents see him go back into building. Recognizing this is their only chance, they initiate the raid. As Miguel tries to kill Jorge he struggles, and the DEA breaks in just in the nick of time to save him. Miguel appears to escape but is t-boned by a general who was assessing the perimeter for that very purpose.

Now almost home free, the DEA tells Jorge that the Cali-godfathers won't stay in jail if they don't have someone who can't decode the ledger and as such his family will be in danger. Pallomari is the only person left who can, and he has gone into hiding. Jorge tells them that Pallomari's wife is having an affair. As such the DEA goes to the other man in the situation and tells him they are looking for Pallomari. They then tap his phone through Jorge's Cali phone company (the company has not gotten the memo yet that Jorge is a rat), and determine Pallomari's location. While at the house the DEA leaves Jorge guarding the car and he has gun pulled on him by Navegante. When they radio down to him asking him if it is all clear, he states that it is, and as Navegante turns his head, Jorge immediately pulls a gun on him. Jorge tells him to put his gun down and that he doesn't want to shoot him. Navegante just smirks and says "We both know that's a lie", and makes a sudden move. Jorge then empties his clip into him, marking his first ever kill. With Pallomari's testimony the Cartel godfathers are put away, and Jorge then spends the rest of his life in Witness Protection.

Bastard? Too Much? He is as I said the Token Good Teammate of the cartel. I feel that's self explanatory but I still feel it needs to be elaborated. He never killed before Navegante in the series, and is shown to be uncomfortable with the cartels more vicious excesses. As stated earlier he was perfectly willing to let an informant go. That being said he's still willing to frame his friend Enrique when his life is on the line. And Enrique was very similar to him morality wise, so this act causes him tremendous guilt.

Charming? Good Planner? Think on his feet? Jorge manages to keep a remarkably cool head in stressful situations. He shows mild frustration here and there especially when it comes to family strife. The only time he well and truly breaks down is after he frames Enrique. That and he gets very angry when Miguel is having him choked and threatening his family, but most people would be mad in that situation. I feel the "breakdown" accentuates his charm since his "breakdown" is due to guilt and family stress. It makes him very human. It's very clear he's extremely intelligent. He helped develop a system of illegal wiretaps that the Cali cartel uses. Since he knows the system inside out he also has tools at his disposal to make it so nobody can listen to his calls, which is how he contacts the DEA. His plans are relatively straightforward, but he's exceedingly good at thinking on his feet, constantly improvising so they succeed. And when they don't succeed it's due to outside factors, not his incompetence.

Mitigating factors? Only one I can really think of is his final fate is somewhat ehh. Witness protection is not looked upon as a glorious fate, but his goal was his families safety, not living in a palace.

Verdict? He get's and [tup] from me.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jun 9th 2021 at 6:27:54 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#49144: Jun 9th 2021 at 3:34:51 PM

Jorge sounds like a yes

Soooooooooo funny story... Remember when I said I wouldn't talk about Lost on this thread anymore?

I Lied - thanks to the wonky chronology, there's one more character that might be worth discussing.

What is the work?

For those of us familiar with the series, I'm going to talk about the flash-sideways timeline. To briefly explain, the series finale reveals that the Alternate Timeline we had seen throughout season six was actually the afterlife - the main characters had created an afterlife for themselves to ensure that they could find each other again and let go of their guilt before they would all move on to the true afterlife. Among other things, Con Man Sawyer is now a cop, Jack and Juliet are divorced, Shannon wasn't on the plane, and, regarding the character I'm gonna talk about today, Desmond Hume was on the plane.

That's right, I'm talking about Sideways!Desmond.

Who is Desmond Hume? What does he do?

In the new timeline, Desmond has everything he wanted - he's respected by Charles Widmore, he has a great paying job, he's confident, he's as far from the loser he was in the main timeline as is possible. Among other things, Widmore has him helping out on their upcoming charity concert, which requires a performance from the band Drive Shaft, including Desmond's old friend Charlie. However, when the two are in the car, Charlie gets flashes on the main timeline and crashes the car into a lake, giving Desmond flashes as well - however, Desmond then gets an MRI and meets Penny, which gives him all of his memories back. Realizing that he's in the afterlife, he immediately gets to work on awakening everyone else, instructing his driver to get him the manifest from Oceanic 815.

He works on Hurley first, encouraging him to go back to Libby after their disastrous attempt at a date and clear the air with her, and he's later seen watching them on another date. With him taken care of, he moves on to Locke and Ben. So what does he do to get his old friends to remember him? Naturally, he runs Locke the fuck over with his car, and when Ben confronts him later about it, he beats him to a pulp to make him remember when he did that the first time. Of course, say what you will about his methods, but they work - Ben and Locke both get their first flashes of the original timeline.

Next, he turns himself in for these actions, getting himself arrested by Sawyer - and put in the same cell as Sayid and Kate, his next targets. Eventually, they all get put in the same transfer van to be moved somewhere else, when the next part of his plan begins - but first, he makes Kate and Sayid promise that if he gets them out, they will owe him one favor each. Once they agree, the car stops. Ana Lucia, the driver, lets them all out, at which point it's revealed that Desmond had recruited Hurley for his plan and bribed her to let them out. At this point, Kate goes with Desmond to the upcoming concert, while Sayid goes with Hurley so he can be awakened as well.

Desmond stops by a church to sign for Christian Shepherd's body, then takes Kate to the concert - and elsewhere, Hurley, on his orders, tranquilizes Charlie to ensure that he makes it to the concert too. At the concert, he runs into Eloise Hawking, who reminds him that she had previously advised him against this plan of his - he responds that he remembers, he just didn't care. She then asks if he plans to take her son as well, but Desmond agrees not to take him, realizing that once Daniel remembers his life, their relationship is over for good - he grants her that mercy, at least. Thanks to his actions at the concert, Kate and Charlie both end up remembering, and at that point it's time to move on. Meanwhile, Boone, as part of Desmond's plan, has himself get beaten up outside of a bar so that Shannon will intervene, bringing her and Sayid together and waking them both up as well.

Finally, he gets all of the main characters to the church with Christian Shepherd's body, finally ensuring that Jack wakes up as well - and with his mission complete, Desmond finally moves on with the rest of the cast.

Is he Magnificent?

Honestly, yes he is. Especially on the day of the concert, his plan is ridiculously multilayered and relies on a lot of predictions of his coming true - he needs to recruit Hurley, have him properly bribe Ana Lucia, get Sayid and Kate to comply, get Christian's body to the church, and make the concert go as well as possible. His plans all succeed perfectly, and by the end of his run, he is either directly or indirectly responsible for Locke, Ben, Charlie, Kate, Sayid, Shannon, Hurley, and Jack remembering their past lives, so he's got quite the list of successes on his rap sheet. Plus, it's made clear that his especially violent acts, like running over Locke and beating up Ben, are planned out - he's doing it to make them remember their lives, so it's premeditated and not heat of the moment like many of his main timeline acts. Overall, I think he's a yes.

Is he a Bastard?

His plan is an inherently good one - he wants to get the rest of the survivors to remember their lives and finally allow them all to move on to the afterlife. He even deliberately leaves Daniel out of it so that he and Eloise can have the relationship they never got to have before. That doesn't excuse the fact that this plan involves running over a paralyzed man with his car and then beating Ben to a pulp when he comes to Locke's aid. Plus, his plan involves having Boone get the crap beat out of him and has Charlie tranquilized as well. So yeah, he's got a heroic goal, but he's pretty damn ruthless about it.

Any mitigating factors?

Of course, there's the issue that the version of him from the main timeline could not be further from this in any way - he's crazy, heroic, and a short sighted loser, and it doesn't help that the two versions of the characters are all considered one by the narrative. However, remember how I mentioned that the chronology is wonky? The flash-sideways timeline is the chronologically last thing we see in the series -by the time it occurs, everyone from the main timeline is dead already. Even though we see him throughout season six as the main timeline is finishing up, chronologically it's a case of a character growing into this overtime. He doesn't begin here at all, but he ends the series here, making him worth the talk.

So yeah, thanks to the absolutely fucked up timeline, I think we can consider this a case of somebody growing into this archetype over time, even if the way the series is formatted doesn't quite make that clear at first.

Final verdict?

He's my weirdest keeper yet, but I think he's a keeper nonetheless - what about you?

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#49145: Jun 9th 2021 at 3:37:36 PM

Isn't the problem with that is that the flash-sideways story is actually them accepting that they're all dead, so any ruthless actions he's taking are in the grand scheme of things not really that ruthless? Or am I wrong?

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STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#49146: Jun 9th 2021 at 3:40:13 PM

They are all dead, but they don’t know that yet - as far as they know, they’re loving their lives when he comes out of nowhere and hits them with his car. Plus, people are capable of dying in this timeline - we see it happen with Keamy and his guys - and Anthony Cooper is actually in a vegetative state, so they’re still considered “mortal”. One way or the other, there is genuine danger there

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jun 9th 2021 at 6:42:11 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#49147: Jun 9th 2021 at 3:44:53 PM

I can't really see that as too ruthless then since I feel he's just sending them to the next journey early so to speak. They're all dead he's just helping them realize it. I just can't see that as ruthless enough.

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STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#49148: Jun 9th 2021 at 3:49:05 PM

The fact that they can die isn't touched on at all, though - there's no indication of what happens to them if they die in the alternate timeline. When you say he's just sending them in early, I could say they cease to exist, and there's no way to prove either argument. What I'm saying is that to them and to the audience, there is real danger present, and the fact that Locke in particular is genuinely being put in a life-threatening situation is bad enough - he may already be dead, but the fact is he can die again, and what happens to him after that is left completely unclear, so to say that them dying in the afterlife isn't an issue is essentially extrapolating on something that the show doesn't address one way or the other.

In short, it's the afterlife, but the real danger is still present and is not downplayed, even after we realize that it's the afterlife, and while there might be potential mitigating issues due to the setting, they're not addressed by the narrative at all. Like I said, heroic goals, ruthless methods.

[down] "Death" and "moving on" are not the same thing. They don't die in the church, they move on through the open church door - it's treated completely differently than Keamy getting shot, Cooper being vegetative, or Charlie almost drowning.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jun 9th 2021 at 7:11:28 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#49149: Jun 9th 2021 at 4:01:18 PM

Well yeah except they all die in the church don't they? They move on to heaven. I'm abstaining for now.

I feel like there's a lot of interpretation going on here. Once they all realize they're dead, do we know for a fact what happens to anyone else? I'm keeping my abstention. Too interpretative for my liking.

[tup]Scerpico, Grunbeld, Lucifel, Jigen, Fujiko.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jun 9th 2021 at 7:22:25 AM

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Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP

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