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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#49101: Jun 8th 2021 at 7:32:51 PM

Yes to Elena and Silico, no to the Blazblue duo.

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#49102: Jun 8th 2021 at 11:28:44 PM

[tup]Elena

BATB write ups, I’ve still got a few more Eps:

  • Equinox was an orphan chosen by the Lords of Order and Chaos to maintain the peace between them, but went mad from the stress, so goes rogue and enforces his own twisted sense of balance. Equinox attempts to sacrifice both a hero and villain as a balance act. He then tries to trigger a nuclear meltdown by manipulating OMAC and Shrapnel into fighting and damaging a power plant, where Batman sacrifices himself to stop the disaster, but Equinox having a fascination for Batman heals him injuries. Luring Batman into killing him, Equinox shed his mortal form and absorbed the powers of his former masters to become a Physical God. Intending to destroy the universe and replace it with a balanced one, where the invincible Equinox is only being defeated by a Logic Bomb. Surviving but with his psyche split up, Equinox's Hate masterminds erasing Batman from existence by assassinating his ancestors. Charming, intelligent, and pragmatic, Equinox is one of the most dangerous villains to appear.
  • Professor Zoom, real name Eobard Thawne, is the Arch-Enemy of Barry Allen / The Flash. Luring his nemesis into the Light Speed Dimension, which he used to teleport Barry to the 25th century. Trapping Barry inside a generator to run endlessly, Zoom siphoned off Barry's speed for himself and his army, whereby he conquered his time period and made it his kingdom. Once the other Flashes and Batman arrive to investigate, Zoom wastes no time to capture the speedsters and add them to the generator, giving him the speed to conquer any time period. Upon being challenged by Batman gaining Super-Speed himself, Zoom has no trouble defeating the hero, stealing his speed bracelets, and is mere seconds from killing him.

Edited by Snowy66 on Jun 9th 2021 at 3:21:33 AM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#49103: Jun 9th 2021 at 3:32:16 AM

So I got my second Covid-19 jab - or "shot" for those of you so inclined - yesterday. For this reason I will post these drafts before I get side effects or something. Cause I had them the first time.

Metal Gear Solid: Sniper Wold is a devious and cunning member of FOXHOUND that joined Liquid Snake's insurrection to exact vengeance on the world for ignoring the plight of herself and her fellow Kurds following the Second Kurdish-Iraqi War. Introduced ambushing Solid Snake and Meryl Silverburgh, Wolf wounds Meryl to lure Snake into the open. After Snake fights back, Wolf affects a retreat and then ambushes Snake with guards, taking him prisoner. Ambushing him one last time after he escapes, Wolf is finally defeated, expressing regret for helping Liquid and dying on her own terms. Humanised by her kindness to the wolves of Shadow Moses, her kindness towards Otacon and sparing Meryl’s life because she doesn't kill for sport, Sniper Wolf was a proud soldier, "wild" and "untamed."

Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops: Gene is the leader of the rogue FOX unit and the insurrection at San Hieronymo. A participant in the Successor Project to create a replacement for The Boss and the Perfect Battle Commander, Gene's natural charisma was enhanced to give him a Compelling Voice. Using this he was able to sway the disillusioned Red Army soldiers to his side, even those resistant to his powers. Wanting Big Boss to join him in forging "Army's Heaven", Gene is nevertheless ruthless in his goals, forcing Big Boss' and his own men to slaughter each other to escape when cornered. When confronted at the finale Gene reveals to Big Boss he knew Cunningham was a traitor all along and played along with him so he could enact his real plan to use Metal Gear to attack the USA and trigger a new world war. Defeated by Big Boss, Gene acknowledged him as the Boss' true successor and gave him a microfilm containing all his resources and contacts he was planning to build his new home for soldiers.

I will add these to the drafts as well.

EDIT: how did I spell "Wolf" as "Wold" goddamnit

Edited by PolarPhantom on Jun 9th 2021 at 3:36:00 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#49104: Jun 9th 2021 at 6:35:24 AM

Yes to Silica and Elena. Switching to a no on the BlazBlue ladies given new information.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#49105: Jun 9th 2021 at 6:56:44 AM

Abstain on the BlazBlue characters, and aye to Silico (from the few episodes I watched, I did like him) and Elena.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#49106: Jun 9th 2021 at 7:14:51 AM

Here's the Miloch expansion (tell me if it's good enough or I should go for a separate entry regarding his animated version) :

  • Professor Miloch Georgevitch is at first a minor antagonist in S.O.S. Meteors : Mortimer in Paris. Left irremediably irradiated and dying after S.O.S. Meteors, and planning to get revenge on Mortimer, he becomes The Time Trap's, main antagonist. Creating a time machine, he died soon after, but left the machine to Mortimer as inheritance, playing on his scientific curiosity to manipulate him into using it. Having rigged the machine, Miloch first attempts to lock Mortimer in several eras, from Prehistory to the future. When Mortimer manages to find a way back in the present, it turns out Miloch had planned that possibility as well, leaving a bomb set to blow up the machine with Mortimer inside it case it happens. In the 1997 animated series, Miloch fakes his death after the events of S.O.S. Meteors, lures Blake and Mortimer to his time machine with a plan similar to the The Time Trap comic and even when Blake arrives lately, manages to adapt his plan to the situation and trap him as well in the time machine, and ultimately nearly kill them by activating the machine's self-destruct sequence.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jun 9th 2021 at 6:40:38 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#49107: Jun 9th 2021 at 7:18:40 AM

[up] A separate entry is probably warranted.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#49108: Jun 9th 2021 at 7:21:14 AM

I think it's more the original entry is long and you could shorten it while adding the additional context.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jun 9th 2021 at 10:24:48 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#49109: Jun 9th 2021 at 7:56:26 AM

Alright, continuing my Lupin III dive, I've got this one from the OG Green Jacket series.

Who is Poon? What does he do?

Poon is (another) legendary assassin who is introduced in episode nine. After arriving at the airport, he talks with his cab driver and reveals that he's in the city for a woman, and his life truly depends on it. Of course, it's Lupin III, so that woman can only be Fujiko. While she's participating in a heist with the gang, Poon sneaks up on her and reveals himself, saying that he came to the city looking for her. When she uses a smoke bomb to escape, his boss opens fire and hits her; while he tells the boss to stop firing, she escapes and accidentally leaves them a blood trail to follow.

Poon and the boss track the gang back to their hideout and storm it, taking Jigen out of the fight and making Lupin watch as Poon simply walks in, takes Fujiko out of her makeshift hospital bed, and walks right back out with her. Jigen can't shoot them with his left hand, but Lupin gets right in his car and chases after them, tracking them to a house in the woods. Meanwhile, Poon reveals his past connection with Fujiko, revealing that the two of them were once known as the "Golden Pair" of the criminal underworld, doing whatever they wanted, killing whoever they wanted, taking whatever they wanted, and getting away with it every time.

Unfortunately, at some point Fujiko made a mistake and got burned by her organization, who ordered Poon to kill her. They were forced to the edge of a cliff so he could shoot her, but Poon managed to quietly communicate to her that she needed to jump into the water. Although she was confused, he managed to shoot so that the bullet only grazed her, saving her life by faking her death. He was then marked as well and forced underground, but tragically, Fujiko never tried to find him, leaving him surviving on his own for three years until he finally made his move.

With Fujiko struggling to live thanks to that bullet wound, Lupin tries to convince Poon to let him in, but he refuses - although he doesn't want Fujiko to die, he also knows he can't trust or underestimate Lupin under any circumstances. Of course, Lupin finds a workaround and begins trebucheting surgical supplies to him via bamboo, intending to have Poon do the necessary surgery instead. After three or four bamboo sticks come in, the boss gets dumb and goes outside, allowing Lupin to bean him and sneak in to take Fujiko. Poon sees this and, with no other option, pulls his weapon on Lupin's back, intending to kill him.

However, at the last second, Fujiko wakes up, sees what Poon's about to do, and shoots first, shooting him fatally. Realizing what just happened, Poon just realizes that she's in love with another man and, after quietly saying that he just wanted his old partnership back, falls to the floor dead. The episode ends surprisingly somberly, with Lupin and Fujiko simply walking away while Jigen pays his respects by tipping his hat to the legendary assassin.

Is he Magnificent?

In terms of personality, he's incredibly subdued (not in a disqualifying way, but he lives in a World of Ham), but in terms of deeds, he's got enough. He manages to track Lupin down to his hideout and kidnap Fujiko right in front of him, he holds Lupin back for eight hours, refuses to trust him under any circumstances because he knows how Lupin is, only loses because his boss is an idiot and gets tricked, and he's the only reason why Fujiko is still alive, considering he faked her death for her in front of people who wanted her dead in the backstory. Plus, it's clearly established that the two of them were a legendary criminal duo in the past, so he's Famed in Story as well, and we see just enough snapshots of their Bonnie and Clyde life together that we can use it, and just to top it all off, he faces his death calmly, simply realizing that she loves Lupin and saying that all he wanted was to be partners again. Combine all of that with the less than 20 minutes that he has to work with and I think he makes it.

Is he a Bastard? Too much?

Well, he does kidnap Fujiko, almost lets her die rather than trust Lupin (which is fair, considering he knows Lupin's reputation), shoots at Lupin and Jigen multiple times, and almost shoots Lupin in the back before Fujiko quickdraws him, but at the end of the day, that's nowhere near the truly heinous stuff that other baddies get into - he even gets ready to save Fujiko's life himself when Lupin figures out a way to get him the supplies. Plus, he's portrayed sympathetically - at the end of the day, Fujiko did scorn him, and ultimately he just wanted to get his partner back and relive his glory days. Jigen even shows respect to his corpse by tipping his hat. Is Lupin Still Burning even shows an Alternate Timeline where Lupin shoots him before Fujiko wakes up and she actually gets so mad that she shoots Lupin, so there's genuine emotions for each other on both sides. So yeah, he's got enough, but he's not terrible by franchise standards.

The competition?

He's going up against Lupin III and Jigen, but he's got one good thing that pushes him into acceptable territory - his loss isn't actually his fault, it's his boss'. The boss was in charge of guarding the window and ensuring that Lupin didn't come in while Poon was preparing for the surgery, but he lets himself get duped and knocked out by Lupin instead. As a result, Lupin could just walk right in. Even then, he doesn't go down without a fight, pulling a gun on him and ultimately only dying because Fujiko shoots him first, an outcome he really couldn't have predicted (given that she's both his former best friend and was unconscious like ten seconds ago). It helps that he goes out with dignity as well, not judging her for finding someone else but just saying that he wanted them back. Overall, considering how easily Lupin usually dances around his enemies, he has to put in a lot of work here (and is all-but having a panic attack with Fujiko's life on the line) and Poon gets to go out with dignity, especially since the loss isn't really his fault.

Any mitigating issues?

Now I know that his motivation and shooting Lupin in the back are prime ingredients for him to be a petty coward, but that's the exact opposite of what he is. It's not like Incel Mamo where the "scorning" didn't actually happen - it's made clear that Poon did genuinely save her life, and she responded by going dark for three years and leaving him on his own. Meanwhile, shooting Lupin in the back is simply a pragmatic choice - Lupin is walking away from him with Fujiko in his arms, his options are rather limited at that point. Overall, he could have been portrayed as the type of person who's as far from this as possible, but in practice his motivation and actions come across as genuine instead of petty or self-serving.

Final verdict?

I think he's a yes - what about you?

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jun 9th 2021 at 12:09:58 PM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#49111: Jun 9th 2021 at 9:37:44 AM

[tup]poon

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#49112: Jun 9th 2021 at 9:41:21 AM

Aye to the latest candidate.

@jjjj2 Done. What do you think?

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Sawkman Since: Apr, 2018
#49114: Jun 9th 2021 at 9:59:33 AM

Did the math, and I believe Silico's currently approved with 13[tup], 4[tdown], and 4 abstains. So here you go.

The Powerpuff Girls (2016): Silico is a technological genius who has dedicated his life to destroying the Powerpuff Girls ever since their recklessness led to the destruction of his robot friends. Since successfully having the Amoeba Boys upload his consciousness to the Internet in his debut, Silico has used his know-how on robotics and hologram technology to act as a consistent thorn in the girls' side. His schemes include destroying the Powerpuff Girls' reputation through slanderous articles, tricking the Professor into building him a superpowered suit, taking control of and upgrading a 3D-copy of Bubbles, and disguising himself as Bliss to give away tech that brainwashes Townsville's citizens into trying to kill the girls. Always coming dangerously close to victory and bouncing back from nearly every setback, Silico has proven to be one of the most dangerous and clever foes the Powerpuff Girls have ever faced.

Also, if he's going up, I'd like to suggest this for Magnificent Bastard Quotes page:

"Ah, Powerpuff Girls, you may have won the battle, but you've already lost the war."

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#49115: Jun 9th 2021 at 10:14:28 AM

Hmm... so it's like what Leonardo was to other Mamo. I'll say yes.

Idisagree Since: Jun, 2011
#49116: Jun 9th 2021 at 10:48:15 AM

[tup] to Elena, Gene, Sniper Wolf, Nine The Phantom (I still don't see why people are downvoting her), and Silco's quote.

Also I consider Revolver Ocelot one of the great legendary Magnificent Bastard. Despite being a Large Ham (that only adds to his appeal), he embodies this trope for me.

[tdown] to Kokonoe. She's intelligent and competent enough but her temper is too much for her to qualify.

227someguy I hate spoilers Since: Apr, 2017
I hate spoilers
#49117: Jun 9th 2021 at 10:53:46 AM

iirc, Silico wasn't even on the pending write-ups since someone else did the counting. That's neat.

Everyone look at my sandbox
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#49118: Jun 9th 2021 at 10:55:27 AM

Yes to Poon and now... the second of my two Berserk candidates.

What's the work? We've talked a lot about Berserk lately, so for those not up to speed, here's what you need to know: It's a classic of Dark Fantasy, it focuses on a guy named Guts who has a big sword, and it has a lot of side characters. Now, this is one of those side characters and one of the biggest ones. Berserk is populated to the brim with burly, badass warriors, subversively evil pretty boys, and horrific monsters. It's only fitting, then, that our candidate should be one of the few straightforward gentlemen in the entire manga... but not gentlemanly enough to avoid keeping here.

Who is Serpico? What does he do? Introduced in the Conviction Arc, Serpico is the right-hand man of Commander Farnese, leader of the Holy Iron Chain Knights. Introduced hunting down Guts alongside his fellow knights, Serpico proves the impressive feat of pushing Guts into a difficult position and defeating the Black Swordsman, giving Farnese the credit through quick thinking. Loyal to Farnese, Serpico comes to take her away after Guts saves her from demons despite the fact they are enemies.

The short version for his backstory? Serpico is, unbeknownst to Farnese, Farnese's half-brother and her father's bastard son. A series of absolutely horrible events happen to him, between an invalid mother who burdens him with her entire life and care who he ends up having to burn to death, and serving House Vandimion, the very House that cast him aside as a bastard. Serpico eventually received nobility from the House to avoid a succession crisis. Serpico and Farnese are bonded since childhood— while their relationship is absolutely not platonic on Farnese's end, at least at first, Serpico rejects her every advance due to knowing he is her older brother, nonetheless serving her with utter loyalty. Also, he's not nearly as idiotic as he initially seems.

Serpico proceeds to join Farnese on her journey, a journey that leads her through many twists and turns and ends up with her defecting from the inquisition of the psychotic zealot Father Mozgus and joining Guts on his quest. Serpico proceeds to aid Guts along his journey, repeatedly being a key player in fights and even receiving a pair of magical items, a sword and cloak repeatedly, that are imbued with wind. Serpico repeatedly proves to be a very efficient monster slayer not unlike Guts himself. Serpico is a supportive and competent member of the party, but he doesn't have his issues settled until he proceeds in again dueling Guts, worried about Farnese's safety, and deducing through Guts's methods of combat that he will control his inner darkness. Serpico loses this time, but nonetheless puts up a good fight, driven by his Awesomeness by Analysis and tactical thinking.

Serpico joins Guts in a number of battles, even joining Guts in killing a giant monster said to have extreme power called the Kundalini. Helping to urge Guts into accepting Nosferatu Zodd's aid, Serpico is instrumental in helping Guts defeat the Kushan Empire. Still joining Guts at sea during the Age of Fantasia, Serpico is overall perhaps the most reliable and useful of Guts's companions— not unimpressive considering he's standing alongside Schierke, a powerful witch.

Is Serpico magnificent? Charming? Intelligent? Thinks on his feet? Serpico is a man who can beat Guts in a fight using tactics and pragmatism. He's able to perform a Sherlock Scan on a situation with ease, and has great deductive thinking, throwing Xanatos Speed Chess into the mix to create easy magnificence. Quoth his trope page on his defeat of Guts:

Xanatos Speed Chess: Unlike Griffith, a chessmaster whose plans account for all possibilities, and Guts, who relies purely on the Indy Ploy, Serpico will go into a fight with an initial plan but modify it in reaction to unexpected setbacks. When he duels Guts in the Birth Ceremony Chapter, he chooses a narrow ledge as the place to encounter Guts so that he can effectively negate Guts' weapons and physical abilities, relentlessly attacking him with his sword so that Guts has no chance to attack and can only block with his iron hand. When Guts turns the tables by performing a Barehanded Blade Block and breaking Serpico's sword, freeing him to use his repeating crossbow, Serpico dives under the incoming bolts, swings to the other side of the ledge, pickpockets one of Guts' miniature bombs that he'd only seen once before, and uses the explosion to escape.

Now consider that Serpico does stuff like this in almost every fight he's in, using terrain, odds, and tactics to his advantage? He's a smooth, suave Battle Butler as well, so charisma isn't in question at all. His loyalty to Farnese is 100% genuine and while their relationship is complicated, somewhat toxic, and has a lot of corners he does everything he does for her, no matter what it is. He's half the reason Farnese is still alive and he has no hesitation in helping her every chance he gets.

Is he a bastard? The initial worry with Serpico that I had was that he might not be bad enough... on evalutation? Yeah, I'm gonna say I think he is. While the first thought was that he was with Guts and he gets up to sordid stuff all the time, I think a much more rock-solid mark of his bastardry is, ironically enough, his relationship with Farnese.

While Farnese is, full disclosure, my favorite of Guts's companions, she is ever so slightly an unstable sadist at first who's just fine with siding with the Holy Iron Chain Knights and Mozgus. She's happy to torture Guts for her own arousal and amusement at first, and Serpico, while he tries to minimize the damage she commits by doing things like advising Guts, makes it very clear he definitely knows what she's doing is wrong. Farnese definitely evolves past this, which Serpico is happy with. Nonetheless, Serpico never for a second makes moves to stop Farnese. His loyalty to her is completely unbreakable, and while he's not fond of the worst stuff she does, there's no moral hesitation there.

Competition? So Serpico is probably the least widespread of the bunch in terms of schemes— he's not a One-Man Army on the level of Guts, he's not a recurring villain like Zodd, he's not a shadowy mastermind like Silat... but he's one of the smartest characters in the whole series. As I summarized, Serpico is so cool, smart, and cunning that he clears the bar easily. Much like Guts, he's punching entirely outside of his weight class, and wins almost every time. He's outplaying people and deducing information all the time. Overall, he's not the most obvious keeper but he's arguably the smartest fighter in the whole series, being Weak, but Skilled yet deadly all the same.

Conclusion? A yes to Serpico, and I have little doubt Lighty's got more coming!

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#49119: Jun 9th 2021 at 11:03:50 AM

Yes to Serpico. It's not the torture, Farnese is involved in persecution and burning of "heretics" which Serpico is fully involved with...to the point he lights the torch on his own insane mother when Farnese orders him to (albeit to protect him as he'd be accused otherwise).

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#49120: Jun 9th 2021 at 11:05:34 AM

Fair point, I failed to mention that but that's absolutely more relevant. Sorry about that.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Jun 9th 2021 at 11:09:00 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#49121: Jun 9th 2021 at 11:35:43 AM

My next Berserk as well....

Say, did you know that "Band of the Hawk' is actually a mistranslation from English? It should be "Band of the Falcon", as Miura ended up saying the origin of the name? The Millennium Falcon from Star Wars. Awesome, isn't it? One of the first and most brutal members of Griffith's Apostles: Grunbeld, the great Flame Dragon.

Who is Grunbeld Arcbeast??

One of, hands down, the mightiest Apostles in the world, on par with (and maybe stronger than) Zodd...Grunbeld's past is revealed in a side novel. Grunbeld Arcbeast was born in the nation of Grant. Grunbeld was the son of the eccentric Countess Euphemia, who was known to be a talented warrior herself, his father dying in battle when he was a lad. Grunbeld was raised a warrior, fighting with bullies until the day he met a blind girl named Benedicte whom he befriended....until the day the kingdom of Tudor attacked. Grunbeld's estate was overrun. Countess Euphemia fought valiantly, but was overrun, raped and murdered. Grunbeld was thrown into prison managed by the sadistic Abecassis, Tudor's head of training "converts" where he befriended a young girl named Sigur and Grant's archduke Haakon's bastard son Edvard who became his friends...Grunbeld's planning and endurance led them to survive Tudor's prison even through torture, when Abecassis had a young sigur gang-raped as a result of Grunbeld's defiance. Eventually, they were rescued when Abecassis tried to feed them to a tiger...and Grunbeld found a mysterious stone, the Beherit.

Grunbeld became a famous knight and warrior, brilliant, tactical and famous...but Haakon decided to get rid of him, secretly contacting Abecassis to betray his own nation if Grunbeld would be removed. ...Haakon, being a bastard, played on Edvard by betrothing Sigur to another family (knowing Edvard loved her) and setting Grunbeld to be married to Edvard's mother, Countess Fulda (Grunbeld's reaction is "...whut") Edvard murders his other mother in a fit of rage, and haakon manipulated him to betraying Grunbeld...overrun and dying in despair, Grunbeld...opened the pathway of Causality.

And the Godhand came, the Four Great Angels offering him salvation. Seeing his beloved Benedikte dying, Sigur mortally wounded and about to be raped by Edvard, Grunbeld realized they'd all die anyways...and so he uttered the fateful words: "I Sacrifice."

Edvard, Sigur and Benedikte were marked and Grunbeld rose...as a true dragon. He bit Edvard in half and his flames consuemd Sigur and Benedikte, who accepted their fate with him, Grunbeld telling them to live on inside him...before Grunbeld killed Abecassis, Haakon and wiped out the fortress...before seeking as he was told: The Falcon of Light.

Grunbeld became one of the new Band of the Falcon, before being sent on a special secret mission: assassinate the witch Flora. Grunbeld leads the clandestine mission against his misgivings, burning Flora, but encounters Guts and faces him as an equal...and to his surprise, is the first true opponent of Guts in the Berserker Armor, where he is driven back, but not killed...Grunbeld remains alongside Griffith in Falconia, helping the Falcon to fly ever higher.

Mitigating issues?

Grunbeld is a brilliant fighter and tactician, one who incorporates titanic power with a warrior's mind and good instincts. The only time he's overcome are not expecting his best friend to turn on him over manipulation elsewhere and drive him to near death....even then? Grunbeld is charismatic, honorable and noble, even as an Apostle, albeit in a far more twisted form.

Grunbeld is an incredibly warrior with a lot of tragedy...losing his mom (who incidentally sounded lik an awesome character and her death is one of the most distasteful parts of the novel which really overuses rape) wh trained him as a warrior, his decision to sacrifice his friends being portrayed more sympathetically and dignified than other Apostles...Grunbeld is also, well...he's an evil demon helping an evil demon godking take over the world. But Grunbeld isn't a sadist. He's got a code of honor and when the Apostles threaten the humans Sonia and Mule, Grunbeld makes it clear he will not stand for innocents being touched. He does assassinate Flora, but he;s clearly uncomfortable with it and way more eager to just take Guts on warrior to warrior.

Conclusion?

A yes to Grunbeld.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jun 9th 2021 at 11:35:56 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#49123: Jun 9th 2021 at 11:53:45 AM

[tup]serpico and grunbald

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#49124: Jun 9th 2021 at 12:15:24 PM

Yes for Serpico and Grunbeld.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#49125: Jun 9th 2021 at 12:20:16 PM

Also, to break from Berserk, I got one I really been wanting to do:

What's the work?

Let me tell you a tale. It took place 360,000...no, 14,000 years ago. Well, for me it seems like only yesterday. For you? It could be tomorrow. It's the story of a man known by 72 different names. What shall I call him...? When we first met his name...was Enoch.

El Shaddai: The Ascension of the Metatron is a trippy as fuck game based around the ever so free and relatable texts of Gnosticism! Enoch, the scribe of God is charged to gather and judge the fallen angels known as the Watchers who have been corrupting the Earth...and the Lord said "Bring me the souls of the fallen angels. and I will spare the World." Enoch sets out with a most unusual guide...the charismatic Archangel...Lucifel.

Who is Lucifel?

The narrator and Enoch's guide through the fallen world, Lucifel is an Archangel and one of the four most powerful children of God. Lucifel's job is to keep Enoch going and direct him...thing is, Lucifel is very, very ruthless with his job in sealing away the rogue angels' souls for their own end. Lucifel acts as mostly a bystander through the game, as a corrupting force called the Darkness is running rampant....Enoch's role is to send Enoch where he needs to go, which he does..

Lucifel, however,seems to have more to him. He guides mortals as well (while at one point chatting with God over his cellphone and laughing "they thought I was you again"....foreshadowing?) But when Enoch is taken by the darkness, Lucifel immediately goes to one of the Fallen, Amaro, who's Enoch's friend...Lucifel tricks and manipulates Amaros into saving Enoch before letting the Darkness claim him, remarking that all that matters is Amaros saving the Scribe...

Lucifel proceeds to guide Enoch into defeating th fallen, the last boss being a corrupted Amaros, while returning to heaven. But it's unclear if the game has prevented his fall...or preceded it.

Any mitigating issues?

Lucifel is cool, charismatic, refined, humorous, put together and manipulative as hell. He likes Enoch fine...but the times Lucifel gets involved? Well, now. He effortlessly plays Amaros into saving Enoch only to leave him to be devoured by the darkness without a hint of remorse and throughout the game we get hints to his pride and darker nature...but yeah, he easily hits the criteria here.

Now, Lucifel doesn't do much evil...he clearly likes Enoch and his relationship with God seems good. But he has that dark side, easily pulling in Amaros to his own ends before leaving him to die or worse with zero remorse.

Conclusion?

An easy yes.


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