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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#451: May 13th 2018 at 9:10:46 PM

As promised, next Gundam EP. Here's Chairman Gilbert Durandal. There will be major spoilers up ahead (though in my experience, knowing the spoiler usually seems to make people enjoy this particular show more).

Who is Gilbert Durandal? What has he done?

Gilbert Durandal is the new Chairman of ZAFT, elected as a moderate and a pacifist. He's The Mentor to new series' protagonist Shinn Auska, the ex-boyfriend of Shinn's immediate boss, Captain Talia Gladys, and the father figure to Shinn's best friend Rey Za Burrel. Of course he's also the former doctor and only friend of Rau Le Creuset, and having watched Le Creuset go mad, has no intention of ever letting anyone do that again. He intends to Take Over the World, and impose his Destiny Plan, which would strip all human beings of free will, forcing them to fulfill positions in life as dictated by their genes. To that end, he's staffed the Minerva, ZAFT's newest ship and superweapon with people who won't ever question or stand up to him, including Talia, who still feels guilty about leaving him, Shinn, who is constitutionally incapable of questioning an authority figure who praises him, and Rey, who is another clone of the Le Creuset line, Rau's surrogate younger brother, and a member of Durandal's Secret Police force.

Durandal is visiting Armoury One when a Blue Cosmos spec ops team raids it and steals the new Gundams he has under production. He joins the pursuit aboard the Minerva (briefly rekindling his romance with Talia in the process), and along the way, identifies visiting dignitary Cagali's bodyguard Alex as Athrun Zala. When a terrorist group comprised of ex-ZAFT personnel launch an attack on Earth (the Break the World incident) sparking another war, Durandal uses his N-Jammer to destroy all the incoming nukes that Blue Cosmos and EA forces launch, saving ZAFT from attack. He convinces Athrun to join up with ZAFT again, and invades Earth, ostensibly to liberate it from EA occupation. It is worth pointing out here that while there is no direct evidence Durandal had anything to do with the Armoury One Raid or Break the World it is heavily, heavily implied that he did.

In order to capitalize on her reputation, Durandal has an insecure girl named Meer Campbell act as a Lacus Clyne impersonator in order to drum up support for the war (Athrun doesn't like this, but plays along because it means the real Lacus doesn't have to come out of hiding). Unknown to everyone else, Durandal sends a ZAFT black ops team to Orb to kill the real Lacus; they are defeated only because of the presence of Lacus' long term boyfriend, Kira Yamato, and his Freedom Gundam. Kira, the Freedom, and the Archangel reenter the war at this point, attacking all sides, and Durandal makes plans to get rid of them.

When Shinn turns captive EA pilot and Tyke-Bomb Stella Loussier free, Durandal pardons him in order to further cement his loyalty (Rey, it should be mentioned, assisted Shinn in freeing the girl, so Durandal likely knew about it beforehand). When Stella goes on a rampage across Eurasia in her Destroy Gundam, and is killed by Kira while burning down Berlin, Durandal cuts the footage that's released to the public in order to make it look like Shinn took out Stella and saved Berlin. He then sends Shinn after Kira in "Operation: Angel Down" with a plan devised by Rey to specifically allow him to take out Kira and the Freedom. Shinn succeeds in totaling the Freedom, though Kira survives and the Archangel slips away.

Durandal presents Shinn and Athrun with new Gundams, but Athrun has had enough and is considering abandoning ZAFT. Durandal sends Rey to assassinate him and when Athrun (and Meyrin, younger sister of Shinn's Love Interest Lunamaria) makes a run for it, Shinn and Rey in the new Destiny and Legend Gundams, shoot him down. Durandal and Rey persuade Shinn and the rest of the crew that Athrun was a traitor hired off by Blue Cosmos, something Shinn at least is prepared to accept to assuage his guilty conscience. ZAFT forces, led by Shinn and Rey, take the last major EA/Blue Cosmos base on Earth, sending Lord Djibril, the actual leader of the EA, fleeing into space. Lacus Clyne reveals herself to the world shortly after this, outing Meer as a fraud, and the Chairman sends Meer to a safehouse in the colonies, initiating a chain of events that concludes in an assassination attempt on Lacus and Meer's death.

Djibril unleashes his Requiem superweapon and obliterates several ZAFT colonies and over a million Coordinators (while railing about how "And now, Gilbert Durandal, I shall play a Requiem, for you and all your kind!"; it isn't relevant to the trope but it is glorious Large Ham). Durandal has Shinn and Rey seize Requiem from Djibril, killing him in the process. Durandal reveals the Destiny Plan to the world; many countries, having allies with ZAFT against the EA are prepared to go along with the plan, while those who will not are threatened into compliance by Requiem. Durandal's propaganda includes the claim that Djibril and many other world leaders are members of an Ancient Conspiracy called Logos which is behind all conflict ever; Djibril does admit to being a member of Logos earlier, but it's very apparent from context that what Logos is and what Durandal says it is are not at all the same. The leadership of the Atlantic Federation is eliminated by Durandal, and every country except Orb and the Kingdom of Scandanavia prepares to accept his terms.

Lacus, Kira, Athrun, and the Archangel, equipped with new mobile suits and allies from Lacus' Terminal organization make an attack on Durandal's headquarters at Messiah Base, which is defended by his Neo-Genesis laser. A sizeable part of the ZAFT fleet, led by former Lacus ally, Yzak Joule, abandons ZAFT for Terminal, making the fight even. Athrun and Kira in the Infinite Justice and Strike-Freedom defeat Shinn and Rey, and Kira gets through to the latter, persuading him he does not have to relive Le Creuset's life. The Archangel bests the Minerva, and Captain Gladys and crew abandon ship. While Athrun and Mu La Flaga destroy Requiem, Kira confronts Durandal who holds him at gunpoint. Both Gladys and Rey burst into the room with their own weapons drawn and before Durandal can shoot Kira, Rey guns down Durandal. A Graceful Loser to the end, Durandal dies in the company of his ex and his surrogate son, while Messiah Base collapses and Kira gets the Hell out of dodge.

What's his competition like? How does he perform against them?

Durandal's primary adversary for most of Destiny is Lord Djibril, Blue Cosmos headman. Djibril is no genius, in fact he's rather infamous for being anything but. He's still a very effective villain, however, with his billions of dollars and total lack of a moral compass keeping him in the game. The dynamic between the two usually plays out as follows: Durandal steals a march on Djibril, Djibril commits an atrocity to negate that advantage, rinse, repeat. Durandal wins over Eurasia, Djibril burns Eurasia down. Durandal drives Djibril from Earth, Djibril opens up with his moon laser. Etc, etc. Of course, in the end, Durandal is ultimately using Djibril for his own ends, pushing the Blue Cosmos leader into committing more and more heinous crimes and in doing so, turning the public away from the EA and towards ZAFT and Durandal. By positioning himself as the antidote to Djibril, Durandal is able to bring much of the world onto his side, and in the end he not only kills Djibril, but steals his Requiem laser and incorporates it into his own plot.

After Djibril, the other person who does the most to oppose Durandal is Lacus Clyne, Big Good and Guile Heroine of both SEED and Destiny. Lacus is the face of the political resistance to Djibril and Durandal both, just as she resisted Azrael and Patrick (and Le Creuset) in SEED, and her organization, Terminal, causes Durandal no end of trouble, ultimately killing him in a decapitation strike on Messiah Base in the final episodes of the show. Durandal's a better match for Lacus than almost anyone who comes before him, though, appropriating her image by way of Meer Campbell, putting forth a political message that can compete with hers on a more even basis than anything Azrael or Patrick had to offer, and nearly assassinating both her and her main muscle, Kira, at various points in the series.

In the wider CE 'verse only Rau Le Creuset, Durandal's friend, patient, and predecessor as Big Bad, matches him for MB status. Durandal is, to an extent, influenced by Le Creuset and his ideology, with the two sharing a similar outlook on humanity courtesy of numerous arguments on the subject. They have completely different ideas about what to do about the problem as they see it, however, and entirely different modes of operation, with Durandal trying to save the world from itself, while Le Creuset settles for killing everyone. They don't step on one another's toes and I have no concerns about nominating them both for the list.

Is the character a Chessmaster? Is he a Manipulative Bastard? Is he capable of thinking on his feet?

Durandal's a classic chessmaster, right down to having the chessboard set up in his office (and playing matches against the ghost of Le Creuset). We're privy enough to his viewpoint to know that he often gets the ball rolling on plans days, weeks, or months in advance; his plan to have Shinn take out the Freedom is first hinted at episodes before it happens. He had advance warning about the Destroy and Requiem as well, and incorporated them into his plans accordingly, and it's very heavily implied that he has knowledge of most of Blue Cosmos' doings well before they do it. He's certainly the best informed character in Destiny and he builds his plans accordingly; in an odd way his talent as a chessmaster and preplanner is sometimes a double-edged sword, with his need to eliminate factors he cannot control bringing Kira and Lacus into the war before he was entirely ready for them. Still, 9/10 times, the Chairman's foresight and foreknowledge lets him roll right over the competition.

The Chairman's also very good at playing to the wants and desires of the people he meets, both publicly and in private. He was elected by pretending to be a moderate. He portrays himself to the people of the world as a saviour come to rescue them all from Blue Cosmos. He recruits Athrun back into ZAFT by working on Athrun's desire to redeem ZAFT and himself from the stain of what his father (General Ripper Patrick Zala) did. He uses Meer's self-esteem issues to reinvent herself as his pet Lacus clone. He plays on the affection his ex-girlfriend, Talia Gladys, still has for him to keep her and the Minerva loyal to him. He tricks Djibril into ruining the EA's public image. And he puts his fingers—or Rey's—on every single one of Shinn's myriad psychological issues, ranging from the loss of his family, to his anger at Orb and the EA, to his inability to admit to being wrong, to his desire to be a hero in order to ruin the kid's sanity and shackle him to Durandal as a loyal minion.

As for thinking on his feet, Durandal doesn't often have to. As previously noted, he's shown to have prior knowledge of many of the series' events, and is implied to have the same about many more. Still, there's one time we know for sure he was surprised, namely when Lacus hijacked his and Meer's broadcast and revealed that she was the real Lacus and Meer was a fake. We see actual shock and horror flicker over Durandal's normally impassive face for just a moment as he realizes there's no way out of this one. By the time the broadcast ends though, Durandal's calm and collected again. He sends Meer into hiding, along with a bodyguard/assassin who has orders to kill her if she becomes an issue, and while it's not outright stated that he's the one who orders Sara to use Meer as bait for the real Lacus, it seems pretty unlikely that Sara did that on her own initiative.

How much of a Bastard is he? Does he have redeeming features? Is he charismatic?

The Chairman is out to create a totalitarian genetic-determinist dystopia, in which everyone's position in life is determined from birth and set in stone. In order to get there he lies to the public, uses Shinn as his own personal attack dog, takes advantage of a teenage girl's self-esteem problems in order to convince her that she should throw away her identity and be someone else, and has numerous political opponents assassinated. That's in addition to waging a war of aggression masquerading as a war of self-defense, threatening the world with a stolen Death Star-laser, and generally using everyone around him as pawns in his grand scheme. There's not a single character he interacts with, save Rey, who Gilbert Durandal is not lying to or manipulating at some point.

And yet he really, honestly, genuinely believes that he's making the world a better place. After witnessing Le Creuset's attempt at kickstarting the apocalypse, Durandal has no faith in humanity's ability to survive if left to its own devices. He's creating his Brave New World in an effort to ensure that no one ever winds up like Le Creuset again, and that even if they do, they'll have nowhere to go. If the whole world is controlled by one government, and that government ensures everyone is happy with their role in life, even if that happiness must be enforced at gunpoint, then there will never be another Rau Le Creuset or another near end of the world. He's about as clear-cut a Well-Intentioned Extremist as you'll ever get on Gundam.

As for his charisma...not only does he manipulate most of the cast into doing his bidding at one point or another, not only does he set himself up as the goddamn messiah, not only does he near successfully convince the world into letting him become supreme dictator, but he took in a huge part of the audience too. I don't know how many people remember the edit wars over Destiny on this very wiki, but I certainly do, and there were a vast number of people in the fandom, here and on other sites, who were one hundred percent convinced that Durandal was a good person and that his plan would absolutely have made the world a better place. They're rarer now, but they were everywhere back when the show originally aired, and their existence speaks volumes about how charismatic Durandal was. He didn't just persuade Shinn and much of the rest of the CE world to go along with him, he conned the audience of the show, many of whom just could not accept that this guy they'd come to like so much was the series' real villain.

Final verdict?

Gilbert Durandal was ruler of most of the world, if only for a few days, and got several billion people (or at least their leaders) to go along with his plans for World Domination. He plays on the psychological weaknesses of others as a matter of course, and his ability to plan down to the last detail is his best asset and Fatal Flaw at the same time. Most impressively he's able to do this while remaining more or less entirely sympathetic, at least on the personal level, and when defeated he takes it with the same grace he takes everything else. He's a pretty obvious keep.

edited 13th May '18 9:11:43 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#452: May 13th 2018 at 9:20:09 PM

[tup] Gilbert Durandal. My personal favorite Gundam Big Bad, just a [awesome] for him because I like him that much.

Him and Rau really seem to have learned a lot of each other, Best Friend Forevers.

edited 13th May '18 9:21:35 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#453: May 13th 2018 at 9:21:34 PM

Here's the live action film folder

"Nothing personal, Jack. It's just good business."

Captain Jack Sparrow! The best pirate ever to sail the seven seas!

"For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for Me, It Was Tuesday."
M. Bison, Street Fighter (The Movie)

Joker: You didn't really think I'd risk losing the battle for Gotham's soul in a fist fight with you, did you? No, you need an ace in the hole. Mine's Harvey.
Batman: What did you do?
Joker: I took Gotham's White Knight, and I brought him down to our level. It wasn't hard. See, madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is a little push.

Ashes, dust, my children were a bust. They shall inherit nothing. No, no. My legacy is too great to throw away on ingrates. Nathan Wallace had potential, till he stole my Marnie away. In denial Nathan blamed himself for Marnie's sudden death and never once thought to suspect the man who wrote his checks! I guess I'll take it to my death.
Rotti Largo, Repo! The Genetic Opera

I have experience, and patience. A man can do anything if he has those.
Helmut Zemo, Captain America: Civil War

Holly McClane: After all your posturing, all your little speeches, you're nothing but a common thief.
Hans Gruber: I am an exceptional thief, Mrs. McClane.

Hunt is uniquely trained and highly motivated. A specialist without equal, immune to any counter measures. There is no secret he cannot extract. No security he cannot breach. No person he cannot become. He has mostly likely anticipated this very conversation... and is waiting to strike in whatever direction we move. Sir. Hunt is the living manifestation of destiny. And he has made you his mission.

Sister, when I've raised hell, you'll know it.
Tom Reagan, Miller's Crossing

Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Your friends, up there on the sanctuary moon, are walking into a trap, as is your Rebel fleet. It was *I* who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them. Oh, I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive.
Emperor Palpatine, Return of the Jedi

Have you ever crossed the road, and looked the wrong way? A car's nearly on you? So what do you do? Something very silly. You freeze. Your life doesn't flash before you, 'cause you're too fuckin' scared to think — you just freeze and pull a stupid face. But the pikey didn't. Why? Because he had plans of running the car over.
Turkish on Mickey "One Punch" O'Neil, snatch.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#454: May 13th 2018 at 9:23:45 PM

Yea to Durandal

Regarding M. Bison Julia's version........I felt that he could qualify just a little bit. But yeah, the quote doesn't match the MB title

edited 13th May '18 9:24:19 PM by ElfenLiedFan90

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#455: May 13th 2018 at 9:25:56 PM

Cut Beckett, he is too much of a asshole to count.

Jack Sparrow is a Anti-Hero, so no.

M. Bison...eh, Evil Is Cool and Evil Is Hammy but his intelligence wasnt his strong point in that movie. Cut.

That line from Rotti made him sounds like a utter bastard, CUT.

Zemo...I think that the line can stay.

Cut Joker line.

Keep Hans

Cut Palpatine

Watch me destroying my country
costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#456: May 13th 2018 at 9:34:59 PM

How about the other three? I haven't seen any of those films, so I don't know.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#457: May 13th 2018 at 9:39:52 PM

[up] Someone will have to sacrify themself

Watch me destroying my country
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#458: May 13th 2018 at 9:42:32 PM

If a line is from someone we've ruled doesn't qualify, cut them.

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#459: May 13th 2018 at 9:50:34 PM

Looking at it, the Mission Impossible quote is describing the main hero, while the Miller's Crossing character is an anti-hero, so I cut them. Anyway, here's the Literature folder:

You had to admit that the bastard had style.
Moist von Lipwig, Going Postal

"A man like him can be evil to the core, but if he is charismatic and amusing, people will listen to him. They'll even like him."

"To see victory when it is within the ken of the common herd is not the acme of excellence. Neither is it the acme of excellence if you fight and conquer and the whole empire says, 'Well done!' To lift an autumn hair is no sign of great strength; to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight; to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear."
Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

"Now the general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to win or lose."
Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

"The man's incredible. I'd like to meet him, shake his hand. And then kill him, of course."

"You know, there was a time where nobody threatened me. I just wouldn't stand for it. The amount of people I killed, of bodies I twisted and bones I snapped, all because they had allowed their anger to momentarily overwhelm their good sense. I regret it all now, of course. I was out of control. I was indulging the darkness inside me far too often. I was not, Mr. Prave, a very nice person. But I have changed. I have allowed the years to mellow me. Now I find joy in simple pleasures. A good book. A fine wine. Good company. All of these things make me smile. They make me happy. But once in a while, I get the urge. You know what I'm talking about, don't you? The urge for destruction. The urge to hunt, maim, kill. It's quite a thing, to experience that urge, to let it wash over you, to give into it. It's addictive. It's all-consuming. You lose yourself to it. It's quite, quite wonderful. I can feel it, even as we speak, tapping around the edges of my mind, trying to prise me open, to slip its fingers in. And it would be so easy to let it happen. But we're all like that, aren't we? We're all barbarians at our core. We're all savage, murderous beasts. I know I am. I'm sure you are. The only difference between us, Mr. Prave, is how loudly we roar. I know I roar very loudly indeed. How about you? Do you think you can match me?"
China Sorrows, Skulduggery Pleasant

...and an Assassin without style, everyone agreed, was just a highly paid arrogant thug.

For my part, if a man must needs be a knave I would have him a debonair knave... It makes your sin no worse as I conceive, to do it à la mode and stylishly.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#460: May 13th 2018 at 9:53:15 PM

At least half of those don't even apply. Like, even if the character saying it is an MB, the quotes does not describe it.

That's two votes for Durandal. Keep them coming.

edited 13th May '18 9:56:47 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#461: May 13th 2018 at 10:30:38 PM

I'll give a yeah to Durandel.

I'll get Zemos effortpost up later in the week.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#462: May 13th 2018 at 10:48:01 PM

[tup] to Durandel

BTW Lennart’s quote was at the MB quote, but I got rid of it since we all agreed that none of the South Park villains counted

Speaking of which 43110 did you request the South Park villains to be cut along with the other villains we agreed to cut?

I’m also pretty sure will find more baddies on the main MB pages that we’ll agree needs to be cut or get re-effortposted.

edited 14th May '18 12:02:38 AM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#463: May 14th 2018 at 12:29:41 AM

I want his example on live action tv to be cut:

Burn Notice: Michael Weston is one of the rare heroic examples. While intricate plans are par for the course in a We Help the Helpless series, pity the Villain of the Week whom Michael sees Kick the Dog or crossing the Moral Event Horizon. For these is reserved a special grade of Poetic Justice ranging from sanity-breaking Gaslighting and Paranoia Gambits that leave hardened criminals crying for their mommies to intricate Kansas City Shuffles that end in master con artists eagerly signing away their swiss bank accounts to hide them from non-existent federal investigations. One memorable episode had Michael utterly convincing a brutal gang of drug runners he was an agent of the devil come to collect their souls.

Micheal is waaaay to heroic for this trope.

edited 14th May '18 12:29:55 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#464: May 14th 2018 at 2:59:07 AM

Alright im going through the ymmv pages of gundam to see if there's anyone there, we missed.

From:

  • Mobile Suit Victory Gundam

  • Mobile Suit Gundam 00
    • Magnificent Bastard:
      • Regene Regetta who, despite Ribbons Almark being able to read his thoughts, was consistently able to out-chessmaster Ribbons on more than one occasion, even after his "death".
      • Ribbons Almark himself is a Magnificent Bastard for a good while before devolving into a Smug Snake toward the end of the series

edited 14th May '18 3:02:09 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#466: May 14th 2018 at 6:09:18 AM

Here's the Live Action TV folder of the quotes page:

He's been callous and charismatic, sick, psychotic and enormously likable. In short, everyone's favorite megalomaniac.

You are swearing now that someday you will destroy me. Remember far better women than yourself have sworn to do the same. Go now and look for them.
Atia of the Julii, Rome

"I always have a plan, John."
Ben, Lost

Crichton: You win.
Scorpius: As if there was ever any doubt.
Farscape, "Liars, Guns And Money, Part II"

I am not on anybody's side.
Gaius Baltar, Battlestar Galactica (2003)

Regina: This is your doing; isn’t it?
Mr. Gold: Most things are.
Once Upon a Time, "Broken"

Eli: Tristan, you need to be in this musical. And if that bothers Becky in the process, bonus.
Tristan: So... you're using me?
Eli: Do you mind?
Tristan: Not a bit, you magnificent bastard!

Let me ask you something, Mr. Garibaldi. Purely philosophical. On a scale of one to ten...how stupid do you think I am?
Alfred Bester, Babylon 5

Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, are given a chance to climb. They refuse, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.
Petyr 'Littlefinger' Baelish, Game of Thrones

Know your strengths, use them wisely and one man can be worth 10,000.
Petyr 'Littlefinger' Baelish, Game of Thrones

Irene: Everything I said...it's not real. I was just playing the game.
Sherlock: I know. And this is just you losing.

SophiaLonesoul Since: Apr, 2012
#467: May 14th 2018 at 6:15:59 AM

[tup] to Durandal

As for the One Piece examples. Crocodile might qualify but not the other ones

[up] I really don't think this trope is something that can be conveyed in a single quote and most of those don't give nearly enough information to even come close to explaining half of it

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#468: May 14th 2018 at 6:28:41 AM

As we discussed? Yes to Durandal.

As for One Piece? Cut everyone and if we re-evaluate Crocodile later he can come back.

[up] Inclined to agree on the quotes, while one might convey exceptional planning ability or charisma, I doubt there's anything out there that incorporates all the facets of this trope to satisfactory level.

edited 14th May '18 7:05:42 AM by 43110

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#469: May 14th 2018 at 6:39:34 AM

For One piece, cut everyone for now. Crocodile is probably the only one worth a shot but we can do that later.

edited 14th May '18 6:39:56 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#470: May 14th 2018 at 6:40:20 AM

I kinda like the Scorpius one, and he's a terrific example.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#471: May 14th 2018 at 7:13:30 AM

Oh shit.

someone readded Coulson and Nick fury back to the ymmv page of the Marvel Cinematic Universe as MB examples after they were deleted. .

edited 14th May '18 7:16:14 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DocJamore Since: Jul, 2014
#472: May 14th 2018 at 7:19:31 AM

[up]

Bring up the issue over on Ask The Tropers and a Mod should get to you.

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#473: May 14th 2018 at 7:20:15 AM

Here’s the entire MCU entry for context

  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Loki thinks circles around everyone, and the only reason he didn't conquer the Earth was down to the the staff Thanos gave to him wasn't as powerful as he was lead to believe. At the end of Dark World, he convinces Thor that he died a heroic death and then takes over Asgard by impersonating his father.
    • Helmut Zemo, the man whose scheme in Civil War nearly destroyed the Avengers from within and successfully divided the team by the end of the movie.
    • HYDRA leaders in general seem to be this:
      • The Red Skull wants to overthrow HITLER and create his own empire, and WOULD HAVE had Cap not stopped him. For reference, Hitler sent him away after his face was ruined, which Skull turned as an opportunity to privately develop weapons that would undermine the Nazis and overpower anything the allies could throw at him.
      • The Skull was upstaged by his own henchman, Dr. Zola, who secretly rebuilt HYDRA within S.H.I.E.L.D., and just seconds away from conquest of the world.
      • Garret, AKA the Clairvoyant, is able to divert resources from SHIELD and gather groups who serve him under the illusion he's a psychic, while Gideon Mallick is able to manipulate Grant Ward, himself a gifted Manipulative Bastard, into abandoning his own revenge plan and work under him through a pep talk to inflate his ego and trick him into buying into a greater purpose, and that's without getting into how he was able to corrupt the agency designed to replace SHIELD by just being friends with the person in charge of overseeing it. As HYDRA is revealed to be a centuries old death-cult who worship a body-jacking Inhuman monster, its likely that there's been many of these leading them, and that said body-jacking Inhuman monster himself proves to be pretty effective at this, being able to completely steal HYDRA out from under the previous leadership and almost getting away with turning the world into a slave army of Primitives.
    • Thanos, considering he's the one behind all the other villains. One could argue that Loki was his Unwitting Pawn.
    • Nick Fury is a heroic example; he constantly lies and manipulates everyone around him, and he's good enough at it that even when they don't like working with him, they still end up helping him in the way he wants them to.
    • Coulson also proves to be effective at this. For starters, after the collapse of SHIELD and being left with only a fraction of its former resources, he wages war against a much larger HYDRA force, and proceeds to slowly and surely dismantle them cell-by-cell, at one point tricking several of the biggest to utterly destroy themselves. Likewise, he's shown to be really good at getting people to do what he wants when interrogating them, skills which he evidently teaches Daisy

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#474: May 14th 2018 at 7:21:29 AM

[up]Im effort-posting Zemo later, so he can stay for now.

As for the others:

  • Cut Loki he's a Smug Snake
  • Cut Skull. He's a total jerkass.
  • Cut Clairvoyant. He's both a CM and far to cruel.
  • Coulson and nick fury are good guys i.e. ( Guile Hero 's). So cut both and mention that.
  • Not sure on Thanos and Zola.

edited 14th May '18 7:24:48 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#475: May 14th 2018 at 7:26:28 AM

From what I recall Zola has many problems counting, his personality certainly leaves something to be desired for one.

Big issue with Thanos is that while he’s made out to be smart he basically just relies on power when he finally appears, I say cut.


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