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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#47151: May 20th 2021 at 5:48:56 PM

Not commenting on this situation further, it's over and done and your assumptions about my thought process just show this was never going to be an actual fruitful discussion, either here or via PM. I'm allowed to not immediately answer a PM, and I'm allowed to disagree a character counts for this trope without being assumed to hate them and thereby lack objectivity.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#47152: May 20th 2021 at 5:59:46 PM

I did not know that you weren't allowed to answer PM's. How was I supposed to take it when you put an additional comment about the Riddler on the thread when I was willing to wait until I got a reply, even if it took a couple of days, before I said anything more on the matter? I have given you cause to feel upset, but I am deeply an personally hurt by your accusation that there couldn't have been any fruitful discussion on the matter. I've already admitted that I was wrong and you did make a good argument for why the Riddler doesn't count. If that isn't enough for you, then I'm sorry.

Edited by Melinda on May 20th 2021 at 6:00:59 AM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#47153: May 20th 2021 at 6:01:14 PM

Drop it. Both of you. We get the point. Now move on.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#47154: May 20th 2021 at 6:01:19 PM

[up][up] Melinda, I'm pretty sure this attitude could get the mods involved eventually. Just giving out a warning.

Sad [tdown] to Godzilla. Trust me, if there was one that counted I'd upvote him faster than Doomguy.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on May 20th 2021 at 6:01:27 AM

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#47155: May 20th 2021 at 6:04:09 PM

As much as I would love otherwise, I'm a sad nay on This Godzilla as well.

Edited by Snoketrope on May 20th 2021 at 6:04:24 AM

Bow to the Prototype
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#47156: May 20th 2021 at 6:12:18 PM

Hey Mel: I have some possible homework for you, since you like DC continuities.

Have you seen Gotham?

Check out Gotham S1 E6 "Spirit of the Goat" and report back to me. I recall the villain of the week being promising.

Edited by SkyCat32 on May 20th 2021 at 9:13:39 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47157: May 20th 2021 at 6:14:14 PM

[tup] Wylie quote, Ra's quote and Veruca

[tdown] Rocket and Godzilla

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#47158: May 20th 2021 at 6:14:22 PM

I'm also gonna lean [tdown] Godzilla. As everyone else says he's awesome and bastardly enough. I even think he's cunning enough, but I think he's overwhelmed too frequently as well. In addition he mostly solves his problems through brute force.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#47159: May 20th 2021 at 6:21:09 PM

[up][up] Sorry, but I haven't seen Gotham. I'm honored and very grateful to be asked though. If you want to do a write up.

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#47160: May 20th 2021 at 6:21:29 PM

This was an accidental duplicate post I had to erase the text of.

Edited by Melinda on May 20th 2021 at 6:26:55 AM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#47161: May 20th 2021 at 6:24:43 PM

All right, I'm just gonna ahead and do this and see what some people say. Here's the second candidate from Homeland.

Who Is He?

Tom Walker is The Heavy for Season 1 and one of Abu Nazir's sleeper agents.

What Has He Done?

Tom Walker, just like Nicholas Brody, was kidnapped by an al-Qaeda terrorist cell led by Nazir. Unlike Brody, we're not exactly sure what Nazir said or did to get Walker to turn. However, as part of Nazir's plan, Walker was meant to have been killed whilst held captive, having been brutally beaten to death by Brody after Nazir made him do so. Halfway into Season 1, it's revealed by Aileen Morgan that a captured POW was turned, but it was Walker, not Brody (although we find out later both of them were turned). We see Walker in person lurking in Washington D.C. as a homeless beggar. During his time, he's approached by Saudi diplomat Mansour al-Zahrani and handed a key for an important mission later. As he waits to move further with his mission, he gets a phone call from his wife, Helen, whom he had secretly been calling so he could hear her and their son's voices on their answering machine. He calls Helen later again the same night to hear her voice once more. However, the CIA was using Helen to track Tom's location via cell phone. Helen, unable to give up her husband, warns Tom that he's being tracked and to run. Walker ditches his phone and flees, ducking into a mosque and losing the police as he interrupts an early morning prayer service.

Later, Walker heads to a storage unit and retrieves a sniper rifle. The next day, Walker heads into the woods, practicing his sharpshooting skills and attracting the attention of a local hunter. Both of them have an amicable conversation at first, but when Walker realizes the hunter is about to report him, he headshots him from yards away with the rifle before he can call the cops. Meanwhile, the CIA snag al-Zahrani and use him as bait to lure Walker out of hiding. Walker finds out that it's a trap, so instead of showing up, he pays another African-American with a similar appearance to meet al-Zahrani instead with a briefcase. Said case contains a bomb, which Walker sets off, killing al-Zahrani and a few civilians and escaping in the confusion.

In the season finale, Walker breaks into an elderly woman's car and hides in the back seat, waiting until she drives home before taking her hostage. It turns out the woman's apartment overlooks the State Department, which is where the Vice President plans on having his next policy summit. During the summit, Walker shoots and kills Elizabeth Gaines, the Vice President's advisor, and takes a few shots at the Vice President himself. He misses on purpose though; it was all a ploy to have him escorted into an underground bunker, where Brody would set off a bomb vest and kill him. As mentioned in Nazir's EP, Brody doesn't go through with it. The next night, Walker and Brody meet in an abandoned alley while Walker has Nazir on a phone call. He chastises Brody for failing in his mission, but hesitates in killing him when Brody convinces him not to. Brody talks to Nazir himself and cajoles him into sparing him. However, Nazir no longer needs Walker, so he instructs Brody to kill him. Brody gives the cell phone back to Walker—and immediately disarms Walker and shoots him in the forehead just as Walker is about to grab the phone.

Is He Charming? Charismatic? Magnificent?

He's magnificent, I will say that much. Whatever Walker is instructed, he'll accomplish by any means necessary. He's a master at Xanatos Speed Chess, similar to Nazir. Unlike Nazir, he does screw up a couple of times because of his own fatal flaws. But instead of panicking, he improvises immediately. When he realizes the police were tracking Helen's cell phone, he immediately ditched his phone, outmaneuvered the cops (on foot, I should add) all without killing a single one of them or any other civilians. When a hunter recognizes his picture in a Wanted Ad in a newspaper, Walker doesn't take the chance of letting him live, and immediately pops him. Upon finding out that al-Zahrani had been turned by the CIA, he lured him into a trap and killed him, all while fooling the CIA. The only reason why he even dies is because Brody blindsides him and draws a pistol to his face the second Walker lowered his defense. So I say he's definitely a master planner and capable of adjusting his schemes.

The problem with Walker is he's not...super charming. Contrasting Nazir, we don't know about his ideologies. We don't know why he turned; we can only assume he turned for the same reason why Brody did: because Vice President Walden is a piece of trash who needs to die. He doesn't give any thought-provoking speeches; he doesn't explain that he's doing what he does for the greater good. This is genuinely one of the few interesting villains in the series and we don't know a whole lot about him.

Is He a Bastard? Too Much of a Bastard?

Indeed. He was fully complicit in helping Nazir and Brody assassinate the Vice President and many other VIPs, and Walker himself personally assassinated Elizabeth Gaines. He also set off a suitcase bomb in a crowded area that killed five people, including a Saudi diplomat.

All that being said, his bodycount is nowhere near as high as Nazir's, or various other terrorists throughout the series. He never takes innocent lives unless he absolute has to, such as when he killed the hunter and set off the suitcase bomb. The elderly woman he took hostage, while left tied up, is mostly left unharmed and presumably rescued off-screen. Even when he was fleeing from the cops, he didn't kill any of them or take any civilians from the mosque hostage—he only subdued the police and ran from them. He's just a soldier doing what is demanded of him, and he uses whatever means possible to get his job done.

What's the Competition Like?

Same as before. The competition is almost non-existent, short of Nazir himself and (possibly) Haissam Haqqani. Which I'm surprised at, given the Grey-and-Gray Morality this series is driven by.

Final Verdict?

I'm not sure. I'll let y'all decide.

Edited by Tyk5919 on May 20th 2021 at 10:01:30 AM

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#47162: May 20th 2021 at 6:26:19 PM

@Mel: Gotham is readily available on Netflix. First season; sixth episode.

Refer to my effortpost for Balloonman if you need help figuring out how the candidate stacks up to the competition. Feel free to message me if you need help.

Abstain on Walker.

Edited by SkyCat32 on May 20th 2021 at 9:27:38 AM

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#47163: May 20th 2021 at 6:27:39 PM

[tdown] Godzilla.

Tentative [tup] to Walker.

Edited by Melinda on May 20th 2021 at 6:27:56 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#47164: May 20th 2021 at 6:39:19 PM

We've had bland villains before. As long as they're not out and out annoying, I think it's fine. But the blandness and his abrubt ending is giving me pause... I think I'll give a leaning [tup].

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#47165: May 20th 2021 at 6:42:11 PM

Let's not try to pull tropers apart like children, I dislike seeing that when both parties have indicated they're stopping.

On a more productive note I'm not feeling Veruca or Godzilla but yee for Walker.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Trashman91 Since: Oct, 2018
#47167: May 20th 2021 at 6:49:36 PM

I mentioned last month that there's a character in the latest arc of the Dragon Ball Super manga who might qualify as a MB when all is said and done. Nobody has claimed the manga according to the Magnificent Bastard Discussion Dates page, so would it be alright if I did?

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#47168: May 20th 2021 at 6:57:35 PM

Yes to Walker

Guys, can I please get more votes for Veruca?

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#47169: May 20th 2021 at 7:02:37 PM

Yes to Walker, kinda not feeling it on Veruca, gonna give a light no.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#47170: May 20th 2021 at 7:18:26 PM

For the abstains and nos, is there anything in particular that's turning you away? I know that j's issue was her death, but is there anything else? I've gotten more confident with her the longer I've thought about it, and I'm down to discuss more before we quite write her off.

Also, everything in the drafts is pothole except the EXA_PICO stuff, which I thought wasn't going out yet anyway due to the need of a page

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 20th 2021 at 10:19:28 AM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#47171: May 20th 2021 at 7:37:04 PM

I've gotta admit, the death is still my main sticking point. I'm giving it a rethink.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#47172: May 20th 2021 at 7:43:41 PM

[tup]Veruca & Walker

[tdown]Godzilla (though that would’ve been fuckin’ awesome)

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#47173: May 20th 2021 at 7:49:08 PM

Here, looking it back I did a crap job explaining why I don't think her death is mitigating, so let me try again.

To me, whether or not her death was planned is a nonissue for me, because whether or not it was her intention, it still gives her a win. For most villains, even other MBs, death is when they lose, and most of the potential mitigating factors so far have come from their death - either because it's because deaths in this show tend to be humiliating, vamps tend to scream, it's often a Curb-Stomp Battle, etc. In this case, even though she dies, her death is her win. Whether or not it was her intention, the fact that Oz kills her means that he gave into his inner animal instincts, and proved her correct that deep down, werewolves are more wolf than man. Her death proves her right, Oz knows it, and that's why he leaves town. To say it's not in her plan is kinda irrelevant because we don't really know what her long-term plan is - the only step we get to see is "kill Willow", but the fact that she goads him into a fight, not only knowing that they're in the middle of changing but also knowing that she could lose, means an argument could be made that she's deliberately angering Oz to get killed.

Now, I'm not making that argument because I'll agree that it might not have been in her plan, but the key point is that it's not portrayed as a loss for her - she wins, even though she dies and might not have seen it coming. Whether or not that was her intention, I'm not inclined to hold it against her, especially when it's not even a humiliating death like normal - she does put up one hell of a fight before Oz gets her throat. To make a bit of a lofty comparison, it's like how L still gets a win posthumously even though he dies (especially in the theatre version where his death has nothing to do with his win).

So yeah, that's pretty much it - I don't hold it against her because she wins either way - if it was intentional then swell, if it wasn't then it's still her victory - and that win gets Oz out of town for the rest of the show (and when he comes back, he proves her right again when his attempt to suppress the wolf fails epically).

That's pretty much that about that.

TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#47174: May 20th 2021 at 8:02:27 PM

[tup] Veruca and Walker

Speaking of EXA_PICO, I do have a few quotes, and I wonder if any works for the page? Here's the few I've found.

"A villain lives a villain's life and dies a villain's death... That's my aesthetic principle. The time has come."

Croix: Are you a devil?
Mir: Don't put me in the same category as those small fry.

Shu: Are you really just a Reyvateil? You can't be a Third Generation
Mir: I never said I was a Third Generation, I'm a Pureblooded Beta-type.
Shu: What!? ...A Beta? The legendary one!?
Mir: I'm the last of the Pureblooded Beta-types that were created, oh, about 400 years ago. In certain areas, I can even surpass the skills of Reyvateil Origins like Frelia.
Shu: Wh-what!? How?
Mir: Plus, I destroyed the world once. But, it was a faraway world, so it doesn't even matter to you guys here.

"The power of Infel Phira is incredible. It brought us an overwhelming victory over the Divine Army. We have surpassed the Power of the Goddess."

I'm honestly leaning with either Soma's or Mir's first one.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#47175: May 20th 2021 at 8:03:28 PM

It's really less Veruca's death and more that she doesn't fit the whole "Bitch" part for the MB criteria. I do agree that she's magnificent and whatnot, and I can understand her death more or less making her something of a martyr. I'm mostly going "Ehhhh, I dunno" because her crimes boil down to her manipulating Oz into embracing his wolf side, and trying to kill Willow.

That being said, this isn't the CM forum where you have to breach the heinous standard with your crimes. You just gotta stand out in terms of villainy and magnificence without going too far or devolving into a Smug Snake. So I am willing to overlook this to an extent.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.

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