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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#47126: May 20th 2021 at 4:11:25 PM

It's a decent enough quote.

Edited by Melinda on May 20th 2021 at 4:15:49 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#47127: May 20th 2021 at 4:15:34 PM

'Yes' to the Ra's quote, good find!

Edited by Ravok on May 20th 2021 at 4:32:05 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#47128: May 20th 2021 at 4:16:03 PM

Ravok,

In regards to the Riddler. Gotham Adventures (were Riddler loses his bank accounts and when he tries to reform and gives subconscious clues to Batman without realizing) came out after The 2004 Batman Adventures series were Riddler becomes a legitimate tycoon (albeit one who still wants a challenge)and then goes into a coma. So technically, that's Riddler's last appearance, and again I say being put into a coma doesn't disqualify him, given how he solves the mystery that Batman spent months obsessing over in a matter of days. Clock King doesn't "outwit" Riddler but is forced to try and kill him in a fairly mundane and hard to avoid way due to how much progress a reformed Riddler is making.

Edited by Melinda on May 20th 2021 at 5:29:53 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#47129: May 20th 2021 at 4:23:14 PM

Unsure about the quote - the "remake the world in his own image" gives me more bastard vibes than magnificence - and I'm fine with an early discussion Ravok.

Okay, I've gone back and forth on this next Buffy potential for the past hour. My gut says no but my mind says yes, so ultimately, I'll leave it up to you all to decide. I give you the Monster of the Week from "Wild At Heart"

Who is Veruca? What does she do?

Veruca is a singer that the werewolf of the Scooby gang, Oz, ends up becoming friends with. With the two of them bonding over music and creating the impression that she seems to understand him in a way that Willow doesn't, it begins creating tension between the originally happy couple. What's that? Is there another Love Triangle incoming? Well, yes and no, because it turns out that not only is Veruca a fellow musician, she's also a fellow werewolf - and she's a lot more "wolf" than human.

When Oz breaks out of his cage on the first night of the full moon, he runs into wolf-Veruca and the two brawl until they fall asleep. When they wake up together, they scour a dorm laundromat for some clothes. During this, Veruca reveals that she has been a werewolf for years and has more than accepted it, even saying that she views the wolf as her true self and her human form as a mask. She begins seducing him, both sexually and mentally, by saying that locking himself in a cage every full moon only denies who he is at his core - an animal, nothing more and nothing less. Although Oz rebuffs her and walks away, it's clear that her words affect him - to the point that for the next night, he invites her into his cage to wolf out.

Veruca comes to the cage to humor him, but immediately begins seducing him again, reminding him that their free spirits belong on the outside where they can run free at sundown. Oz rebuffs her again, reminding her that people tend to die when that happens, but she continues her seduction, reminding him that they share a special connection and that she knows he could sense her even before they met. As the sun further descends, Oz finally gives in and has sex with her, with the two continuing the act in the cage even as they transform. Willow catches them the next day and calls Oz out at length for falling for Veruca's charms, even telling him that he could've just told them about Veruca instead of locking her in the cage with him; Veruca sticks around just long enough to tell Oz that she's right before Oz yells at her to leave.

When Oz is looking for her the next day, he finds out that she hasn't returned to any of their regular haunts, so he and Buffy go looking for her to lock her up for the night. Oz believes that he can track her based on her smell, but when he reaches the end of the trail, he finds her clothes - and realizes too late that she deliberately left her clothes there to lead him away, because she's actually going for Willow. Veruca arrives as Willow is putting an end to a curse she almost put on him, and has enough time to hit her once before Oz arrives. She says one more time that, at his core, Oz is an animal, and this time Oz takes her words to heart - they transform just afterwards, and in the ensuing fight, Oz rips her throat out, killing her for good.

Realizing that Veruca was right after all and that trying to separate the human and wolf forms just won't work, Oz leaves Sunnydale behind, attempting to find somewhere where he can learn to avoid the change and never hurt the ones he cares about again, ultimately vindicating Veruca's beliefs after all.

Is she Magnificent?

In her own way, yes. She may not be a Machiavellian schemer like the Master or pragmatic like Sunday, but ultimately she has a very concrete goal she's working towards and succeeds in it, albeit at the cost of her life - it may be a small-scale goal, but it's a goal nonetheless, and that just makes it even more personal. She manages to play the normally stoic Oz like an absolute fiddle, getting him to cheat on Willow, forsake his friends, and ultimately give in to the wolf at the end of the episode - plus, she has an incredibly smart gambit when she dumps her clothes to lead Oz off the trail. While her physical presence is small, her spiritual presence is all over the episode, and ultimately it's her actions that lead to Oz walking out of the show almost for good. Plus, it's made clear that, at her core, she's right about who she and Oz are - trying to separate their wolf and human sides a la Jekyll and Hyde won't work, and ultimately, the episode in which Oz returns briefly proves her right posthumously when Oz attempts to suppress the wolf completely and fails so badly that he turns in the middle of the day. Ultimately, though she doesn't do much scheming of her own, the few things she does do have enormous consequences for Oz, Willow, and the show - most notably, Spike fills Oz's void in the show's lineup - and given that she's ultimately proven right, I'm inclined to say yes.

Is she a Bitch?

This is definitely the easier of the two. On the one hand, she willingly wolfs out in public (an act which Oz notes usually leads to people dying), seduces him into cheating on his girlfriend, takes the time to push his emotions further when they're caught, and ultimately tries to kill Willow to free him from the cages she puts him in, so she's far from a saint. On the other hand, it's the Buffyverse - Oz himself tries to kill Willow like 45 seconds after she does, so nothing she does crosses the threshold into true heinousness - and ultimately, her goal of freeing Oz's spirit and getting him to acknowledge that he's more wolf than he'd like to admit is at least somewhat understandable, especially since she's pretty much proven right. Easy yes.

Mitigating factors?

As the episode goes on, Veruca gets slightly more manic, but ultimately the episode leaves a very strong implication that it's due to the influence that the wolf has on her. Notably, Oz himself is a lot more emotionally unstable as well (he shows more emotion in this one episode alone than in the rest of his run combined, even raising his voice for the first time), so while she does seem at least a little manic, there's an explanation for it that makes me inclined to forgive it. If it were just her I'd be more concerned, but the fact that it affects Oz too makes it pretty clear that it's her instincts going into overdrive and not something we can fault her for.

I also want to talk about her death, because an argument can be made that she goads him into becoming a bigger threat than she expected and misplayed her hand. However, in its own way, Oz killing her only proves her right in the end. Her main point is that Oz is more of an animal than he likes to pretend, which he admits and then proves in rapid succession - just after he kills Veruca, he almost kills Willow as well, meaning he can't even distinguish friend from foe. When her plan is just to release his beast, it's entirely possible that her death crossed her mind - the fact is that her endgame is so ambiguous that it could go a lot of different ways, and ultimately her death proves her point just as well as if she'd survived. Basically, what kills a lot of baddies here is that their death is presented as a failure, but here her death is a win for her.

Final verdict?

I give an incredibly tentative yes - what about you?

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 20th 2021 at 8:05:57 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#47130: May 20th 2021 at 4:28:50 PM

Look, if you're so intent on Riddler counting? Do a proposal, and the thread can vote. But the events you're referring to happen in the course of like less than 5 issues after years and many appearances of Riddler not counting, and even in said handful of issues he's still the same compulsive, smug Riddler who is so desperate for mental stimulation that he sweats and imagines himself robbing banks while just opening accounts, freaks out when he's targeted for assassination and screams about it, and ends the comic in a coma after Clock King gets the drop on him. It's not nearly as impressive as Lex reformatting his entire personality and taking out the biggest threat in the DCAU in his final appearance. Riddler just gets a bit more self control, is still an emotionally unstable thrillseeker, and ends the comic getting knocked into a coma and outdone by Clock King.

As I said, you wanna propose him on the basis of a couple of issues, be my guest, but I can almost guarantee you it's gonna be a waste of your time if you're actually expecting him to get voted up. I've given more than enough reasons why he doesn't count, and accusing me of not covering all the bases or describing every last one of his appearances and why he doesn't count isn't helping your case when it's all treated as mostly true DCAU canon through and through.

Edited by Ravok on May 20th 2021 at 4:31:52 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#47131: May 20th 2021 at 4:41:53 PM

Abstain on Veruca.

It's ok, Mel. Not every great villain is an MB or CM. Just ask Elle Driver.

Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#47132: May 20th 2021 at 4:50:56 PM

[up][up]

As you say, my impassion is based on a handful of comics, and that's a fair point. I haven't read all of the DCAU comics and (given budgetary concerns) doubt that I will in the near future, so any write up I did would be incomplete and not necessarily accurate. There are some people on this thread who had some interest in the Riddler if he did go through some Character Development, which he did. Whether or not its enough, I don't know, but I do think that everyone else deciding the comics Riddler doesn't deserve even a hearing out based almost solely upon your not exactly detached arguments doesn't feel fair to me. [tdown] Veruca.

Edited by Melinda on May 20th 2021 at 4:52:37 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#47133: May 20th 2021 at 4:53:35 PM

It's not based on one person's arguments - it's one person's arguments backed up by discussion that we've already had in the past. It's a bit of an important distinction there, and to suggest that one person controls the whole argument is not going to earn your side a lot of points there, especially when that one person has literally been around since the thread began.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 20th 2021 at 7:56:59 AM

Pikamencer079 Since: Jul, 2018 Relationship Status: Married to the job
#47134: May 20th 2021 at 4:57:10 PM

What's The Work

The MonsterVerse is a franchise of American kaiju films produced by Legendary Pictures and distributed by Warner Bros., prominently featuring the monsters Godzilla and King Kong. This incarnation of the former of the two will be our candidate for the title of Magnificent Bastard.

Who is Godzilla? What has he done?

Godzilla is the last surviving member of the Titan superspecies Titanus Gojira, having thrived during the Permian period, where he fed on the ambient radiation, before entering a state of dormancy when global radiation levels fell, feeding on the Earth's geothermal radiation instead. Awakening twice after the bombing of Hiroshima and the descent of an American nuclear submarine drove him to the surface in search of new sources of radiation, each time battling Shinomura, a superorganism that lived alongside his kind in the Permian and had been awakened by radiation as well, both Godzilla and Shinomura were blasted with a hydrogen bomb in Bikini Atoll in an attempt from the military to kill them. While Shinomura was killed, Godzilla survived the blast and returned to the ocean.

60 years later, Godzilla detected the mating call of a MUTO, a parasitic Titan that lived in the Permian, and deemed them a threat. Tracking the male to Honolulu, Godzilla briefly clashed with it before tracking it underwater when it flies away. Godzilla surfaces near the Golden Gate Bridge, shrugging off an attack from the military until a missile his him in the gills, causing him to accidentally smash into it. He enters San Francisco and once again battles the male while its mate laid their eggs. Reaching the MUTO's' nest in the heart of the city, Godzilla ferociously fought the two creatures, losing at first before killing the male by using his tail to slam it into a building and decapitating the female by blasting his atomic breath down her throat. Victorious, Godzilla roared before collapsing in exhaustion and was believed to be dead. By the next morning, Godzilla awoke and began to return to the sea, being hailed as a hero by the media for ending the threat of the MUTO's.

Five years after the battle of San Francisco, Godzilla awoke once again and traveled to Antarctica, where he confronted the recently-awakened Titan "Monster Zero," emerging from the ice to combat it before his opponent flies away. Tracking Monster Zero across the ocean, Godzilla emerged from the water and once again engaged with it, tearing off one of its heads in the process. Unfortunately, Godzilla was badly wounded by the "Oxygen Destroyer" missile deployed to kill both monsters, leaving Monster Zero, actually Godzilla's extraterrestrial arch-nemesis whose true name is Ghidorah, unharmed to usurp Godzilla's position as alpha. Recuperating in an underwater chamber, Godzilla was revived after feeding on the radiation emitted from a nuclear warhead detonated by Monarch scientist Ishiro Serizawa, leaving the team that authorized the operation unharmed upon realizing that they helped him. The supercharged Godzilla followed Ghidorah to Boston, engaging in a violent brawl with the alien. Despite being stronger, Godzilla was still heavily wounded when Ghidorah carried him into the sky and dropped him to the ground. Following the death of his ally Mothra at the hands of Ghidorah, Godzilla recovered, glowing a fiery-orange as he bombarded his opponent with thermonuclear blasts. Returning to his normal skin tone, Godzilla then destroyed Ghidorah once and for all by incinerating his middle head with his atomic breath. Approached by the Titans Ghidorah commanded in his tenure as alpha, Godzilla unleashed a victorious roar as they bow to him.

Five years following Godzilla's victory over Ghidorah, the Titan sensed remnants of his deceased enemy and resolved to destroy them. Godzilla then began to attack facilities owned by Apex Cybernetics, who were involved in shady projects involving Ghidorah's remains; however, his uncharacteristically aggressive behavior towards human settlements alarmed much of the public. Continuing to look for signs of Ghidorah, Godzilla attacked a military convoy transporting Kong, a Titan of a superspecies that was an ancient rival of his own, to Antarctica. Although distracted by the military, he managed to drag Kong underwater and very nearly drowned him before he was disoriented by depth charges. Godzilla then left the convoy be after they turn off their vehicles' engines, believing that he has won and turning his attention to destroying Ghidorah's remains. About to destroy the Apex facility in Hong Kong, Godzilla suddenly detected a surge of energy from the Hollow Earth, blasting his atomic breath downwards and punching into the planet's core. Having challenged Kong to a rematch, Godzilla then battled the giant ape in a much more even fight due to Kong having the advantage of agility. A blow from Kong's battle axe, capable of absorbing his atomic breath to power up its strikes, rendered Godzilla unconscious. Upon awakening, Godzilla was ambushed by Kong, who kept him in a headlock before the reptilian Titan proceeded to throw him off, savagely mauling him and pinning him with his foot. Godzilla then roared in Kong's face to try and intimidate him into submitting before being met with a defiant roar from the ape. Impressed, Godzilla spared Kong and withdrew. He soon confronted Mechagodzilla, the product of Apex's experiments with Ghidorah's skull that was overtaken by the alien's consciousness. Exhausted from his battle with Kong, Godzilla was mercilessly beaten by the robot and would have been killed by an energy beam blasted down his throat if Kong hadn't intervened. The two Titans placed their rivalry aside to take on Mechagodzilla, but the mech was still too powerful for either of them. Noticing Kong struggling against the robot with his axe, Godzilla fired his atomic breath towards the blade, empowering the axe and allowing Kong to dismember and decapitate Mechagodzilla. The two then regarded each other as equals and went their separate ways, with Godzilla retreating back into the ocean.

Can Godzilla think on his feet?

Godzilla is very intelligent and able to learn and strategize to solve problems. In his battle with the MUTO's, he studies their attack patterns and capitalizes on their weaknesses, targeting their vital organs so as to reserve his energy while trying to kill them. He also knows to avoid unnecessary conflict, only killing the MUTO's and Ghidorah when they posed a threat to the Earth and trying to make Kong defer to his authority instead of killing him; he also leaves Kong peacefully after their battle with Mechagodzilla. When Godzilla began to attack human settlements, his rampages were specifically targeted towards Apex Cybernetics facilities, showing that he is capable of pinpointing exact groups of people which pose a current thread. He also recognizes when he is being aided in a fight, assisting Kong in dispatching Mechagodzilla and, having observed the effects of his atomic breath on the ape's battle axe, blasts the uncharged weapon to allow Kong to finish off the robot.

Is Godzilla a bastard?

While Godzilla is typically benevolent towards humanity, it should be noted that he is willing to kill when necessary, but this is usually when they pose a massive threat to the Earth. Godzilla also becomes aggressive towards humans when provoked, intentionally attacking Apex facilities instead of causing destruction through collateral damage. He even shows a sadistic side in his battle with Kong in Hong Kong when he gave a menacing grin and a grumble evocative of a chuckle upon singeing the ape with his atomic breath. Although he is by no means inherently evil, Godzilla is still very morally dubious.

How does Godzilla compare to the competition?

Godzilla has had far more victories than many other Titans, having successfully defeated the Shinomura in Bikini Atoll, killed the breeding pair of MUTO's that threatened to reproduce and overrun the world, killed Ghidorah and reclaimed his rightful position as alpha, and helped to destroy Mechagodzilla. Godzilla has also elicited a lot of awe in-universe, as seen in the soldiers gawked at his use of the atomic breath and is hailed as a hero by the public. Kong, Mothra, Rodan, and several of the other Titans are far less renowned and have had less large victories (although Mothra's sacrifice allowed Godzilla to kill Ghidorah and Kong was the one to end Mechagodzilla's threat), the MUTO's are basically instinct-driven animals, and Ghidorah is simply put, pure evil.

What's the verdict? I'd like to hear your opinions in the thread, but I believe that the MonsterVerse incarnation of Godzilla deserves the title of MB.

Edited by Pikamencer079 on May 20th 2021 at 5:26:06 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#47135: May 20th 2021 at 4:58:11 PM

I see what you're getting at STAR but I don't think her plan involved her dying. I'm gonna abstain.

Melinda, Ravok was backing up his argument to the fullest of his ability. He's allowed to explain why a candidate potentially doesn't count.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#47136: May 20th 2021 at 4:58:39 PM

I am not feeling he qualifies admittedly I haven't watched the recent Monsterverse movies but I remember him being more heroic, you also didn't include the "Is he a bastard" section.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#47137: May 20th 2021 at 5:03:17 PM

I can lean 'Yes' to Veruca

Not even gonna comment on what "detached arguments" even fuckin' means, but at no point did I ever entertain the idea of wanting everyone to just take my word on Riddler and shut up about it. People trust my opinion and arguments since, y'know, I helped found the trope and am one of the most frequent contributors. And as I said, someone can go right ahead and propose Riddler if they want, I'm not stifling discussion, just laying out the reasons I don't think he counts

What do we say, folks, do we need me to provide pictoral and video evidence that Riddler goes through enough humiliations, breakdowns, and smugness even in his supposed "Character Development" that he never once comes close to hitting this trope except his first episode? Because I can and will if it will satisfy one lone person's admitted ignorance of the character's appearances in total VS me who's read every last one of his comics and appearances in the DCAU.

Edited by Ravok on May 20th 2021 at 5:08:42 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#47138: May 20th 2021 at 5:08:35 PM

Yes to Veruca holding off on Godzilla until I hear some more opinions

Honestly this discussion of Riddler seems to have run it's course, all of the evidence has been presented and discussed and it's just getting unpleasant. Melina, if you really want to propose him do the research and make an EP, going back and forth especially since you admit to not having read all of the comics isn't going to help anyone.

Edited by papyru30 on May 20th 2021 at 6:12:15 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#47139: May 20th 2021 at 5:10:00 PM

The problem with Godzilla....

Godzilla, by and large, is not a chessmaster type of opponent. I love him, but...he's not this. He sometimes ends in over his head (Ghidorah, the Mutos, Mechagodzilla)...

I think putting him on would be an unfortunate stretch. Now, he's easily enough of a bastard (his attitude towards collaterla damage is...somewhat nonchalant until some character development, even if he doesn't make it a priority) but I don't think he's got enough planning and tactical brilliance present.

But all I really see in the EP...is Godzilla can recognize threats and fight effectively. We need more than that.

Edited by Lightysnake on May 20th 2021 at 5:11:27 AM

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#47142: May 20th 2021 at 5:13:12 PM

Yeah, I've always been kind of eh whenever we bring up animal characters here. Gonna abstain on Godzilla.

Also everyone chill about Riddler. If Melinda wants to do an EP, then that's fine. But if this version of the Riddler has been thorough discussed before, and Melinda, if you haven't even read the comics yourself, it's best to let this go. Not everyone has to be an MB, just like how not everyone has to be a CM over in the other forum.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#47143: May 20th 2021 at 5:15:00 PM

I unfortunately do have to lean towards agreeing with Lighty on Godzilla, he's certified awesome and certainly enough of a bastard, but he doesn't do...much in the way of cunning. He mostly shows up where he's needed, wrecks shit, then exits the scene, and he does have a habit of getting overwhelmed by the villains he's up against and only coming out through outside help or something similar. If someone could argue for some more cunning outings, I'd happily see him go up, though.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#47144: May 20th 2021 at 5:17:53 PM

Yeah, tragic no to Godzilla. For a comparison, I look to the Doom Slayer, who largely also shows up, wrecks shop, and moves on - except along the way, he shows a brilliant tactical mind and a habit of Cutting the Knot that makes him count here, and there’s nothing he faces that he can’t punch to death. I love this version of Godzilla, but he’s just not this

Anymore votes for Veruca?

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 20th 2021 at 8:21:30 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#47145: May 20th 2021 at 5:22:02 PM

No to Zilla.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#47146: May 20th 2021 at 5:25:35 PM

For the time being, I’m actually gonna go against the grain and say [tup] to Godzilla. The fact that he powers through almost each and every time he’s facing a challenge helps him stand out and yeah, we do have MBs who while not exactly dummies do have more physical abilities to exert in their circumstances. Exhibit A: Cable.

This inspires me to try a similar character from a certain animated show...

Edited by futuremoviewriter on May 20th 2021 at 5:25:52 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#47148: May 20th 2021 at 5:32:12 PM

[tup] to Veruca

Also I think that I'll also give a [tup] to Godzilla as well. While he is a little more heroic than most incarnations, he's still commits lots of destruction which resulted in some innocent human casualties. Plus he's shown to be cunning as well, such as when he blasted directly at King Kong's axe which powers Kong up and allowing him to destroy Mechagodzilla.

Edited by G-Editor on May 20th 2021 at 2:33:51 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#47149: May 20th 2021 at 5:33:00 PM

Ehhhhhhhhhhh, I'm leaning towards [tdown] for Veruca.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Melinda Since: Dec, 2019 Relationship Status: Puppy love
#47150: May 20th 2021 at 5:40:09 PM

Ravok. By "detached arguments" I meant that it came across as you had a personal hatred for the Riddler and weren't objectively assessing both the pros and the cons of the character. Looking back at everything you wrote, I see that I was reading too much into some of your comments. I now realize why my comments made you so angry and would like to apologize. You were just stating the reasons why you thought he didn't count and I let myself get too angry based on what I perceived as an unfair argument rather than taking the time to make a genuine argument myself.

I sent you a PM because I wanted to discuss this one on one in a more private setting and with more time to weight each others arguments and I let myself get overly invested and angry because of how you didn't reply to me but instead made a double down argument here on the thread.

I felt that as a creator and major contributor to the MB thread your argument on a character who didn't have an EP yet was an attempt to stifle discussion. In hindsight, I realize that you were just responding to someone else's general inquires about the character, and were being honest about your opinions, in addition to trying to be thorough and make people who've read some of the comics but not all of them (like me) consider the big picture before just jotting something down.

In the future, please don't feel the need to curse at me.


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